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TEPaul

Routing and designing a golf course!
« on: April 20, 2009, 10:04:43 PM »
You know, at this point, and due to the laughable confusion on the Findlay meets Wilson thread, I have just got to ask this question.

Who on this website, and particularly those participating on the "Findlay Meets Wilson" thread has EVER actually routed and designed a golf course on a plan or survey (topo contour map) for a particular site and actually presented it to a club or principles for their consideration in the creation of the course?

We have a number of architects on this website so obviously they have but who else on here has actually done what I just asked above.

I have the distinct feeling that almost complete silence and lack of response on this thread is going to completely make the point I've tried to make on that Findlay/Wilson thread but would like to make the same point via this particular thread's subject.

When it comes to Macdonald actually routing (and or designing) the holes of Merion you guys are about to see it would have been impossible for him to do that even if MCC asked him to which I have never seen a scintilla of evidence or even the implication of it anywhere that they ever did.

Why would it have been impossible for him to route and design Merion East?

Who wants to guess? The first correct answer gets a round at Merion arranged and paid for by me through the Pissboy! If the Pissboy doesn't want to do it I'll call up my neighbor across the fields and get him to do it! If he doesn't want to do it, I'll call up..... and if he doesn't want to do it, I'll call up.....and if he doesn't want to do it, I'll call up.........believe me this can go on for a long, long time! ;)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 10:16:00 PM by TEPaul »

Sean Leary

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 10:42:04 PM »
Did CBM not technically rout his own courses?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 10:44:55 PM »
He always routed on his trusty horse, but didn't want to ship it from NY to Philly?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 11:08:46 PM »

Who on this website, and particularly those participating on the "Findlay Meets Wilson" thread has EVER actually routed and designed a golf course on a plan or survey (topo contour map) for a particular site and actually presented it to a club or principles for their consideration in the creation of the course?

We have a number of architects on this website so obviously they have but who else on here has actually done what I just asked above.


Mr. AmenhoTEP,

This previous statement borders on being a tautology. If one has routed and designed a golf course and presented said course design for actual use, he is a defacto architect is he not?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 11:12:52 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Philippe Binette

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 11:22:42 PM »
It was the beginning of the prohibition

nobody can routed a golf course without any alcohol in their body ;D ;D

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 11:30:56 PM »

Why would it have been impossible for him to route and design Merion East?


Oh yes, and for the win...

The board was too intimidated by the man named Charles.
 ;)

Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

TEPaul

Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 11:33:42 PM »
"If one has routed and designed a golf course and presented said course design for actual use, he is a defacto architect is he not?"

CharlieG:

Do you think so, even if it was never built?  ;)

Kirk Gill

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 11:36:40 PM »
Did Merion own all of the land that they used for the course at the time that CBM was actually on site?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

TEPaul

Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 11:47:56 PM »
"Did Merion own all of the land that they used for the course at the time that CBM was actually on site?"


Kirk:

Intesesting question and the answer is not exactly, depending on which of the two one day visits by Macdonald/Whigam you're talking about. When the first one occured (June 1910) they didn't own any of the land and when his second visit occured (April 1911) they owned all the land except for that three acre tract behind the clubhouse he recommended in 1910 they buy; the same small tract he recommended they buy again on April 6, 1911.

The Merion records say nothing I'm aware of whether or not they took him seriously the first time and routed holes in there before he came back.

That little tract is a most interesting one. The board approved the purchase of that land in the spring of 1911 and they even had a price for it but the club didn't actually buy it until a half century later. In my opinion, there's a very understandable reason for that. :)

 

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2009, 12:00:01 AM »
"If one has routed and designed a golf course and presented said course design for actual use, he is a defacto architect is he not?"

CharlieG:

Do you think so, even if it was never built?  ;)

I think so, because architecting's hard.

Most people don't land the first job they apply for. Was Bob Dylan not a songwriter until someone paid to listen to him sing one of his songs? Was Amenhotep not a ....well never mind!  ;)
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

DMoriarty

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2009, 12:41:24 AM »
He was only on site for two days.


When do we play?

Wayne already owes me a round.  Can we go 36?

You know, at this point, and due to the laughable confusion on the Findlay meets Wilson thread, I have just got to ask this question.

Who on this website, and particularly those participating on the "Findlay Meets Wilson" thread has EVER actually routed and designed a golf course on a plan or survey (topo contour map) for a particular site and actually presented it to a club or principles for their consideration in the creation of the course?

We have a number of architects on this website so obviously they have but who else on here has actually done what I just asked above.

I have the distinct feeling that almost complete silence and lack of response on this thread is going to completely make the point I've tried to make on that Findlay/Wilson thread but would like to make the same point via this particular thread's subject.

When it comes to Macdonald actually routing (and or designing) the holes of Merion you guys are about to see it would have been impossible for him to do that even if MCC asked him to which I have never seen a scintilla of evidence or even the implication of it anywhere that they ever did.

Why would it have been impossible for him to route and design Merion East?

Who wants to guess? The first correct answer gets a round at Merion arranged and paid for by me through the Pissboy! If the Pissboy doesn't want to do it I'll call up my neighbor across the fields and get him to do it! If he doesn't want to do it, I'll call up..... and if he doesn't want to do it, I'll call up.....and if he doesn't want to do it, I'll call up.........believe me this can go on for a long, long time! ;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 12:46:11 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Brian Phillips

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 12:55:30 AM »

Who on this website, and particularly those participating on the "Findlay Meets Wilson" thread has EVER actually routed and designed a golf course on a plan or survey (topo contour map) for a particular site and actually presented it to a club or principles for their consideration in the creation of the course?

We have a number of architects on this website so obviously they have but who else on here has actually done what I just asked above.


Mr. AmenhoTEP,

This previous statement borders on being a tautology. If one has routed and designed a golf course and presented said course design for actual use, he is a defacto architect is he not?
No.  He has only routed the golf course, that's the fun part.  The hard work starts actually being there designing the features.

Although the routing is one of the most important parts of the puzzle it is nothing without great features being designed and built.

So my answer would be no he does not become an architect just because the routing was done by him.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

TEPaul

Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 01:06:57 AM »
Although the routing is one of the most important parts of the puzzle it is nothing without great features being designed and built.

So my answer would be no he does not become an architect just because the routing was done by him."


Brian:

You never saw the plan. Everything was in it---it was a routing (whatever that means to you) and total design plan, bunkers, green designs and all. I'm not much of an artist but the plan was complete, and I still have it. It was never built obviously but who's to know how good it was? Ask Bill Coore about it sometime---he looked at it all the way from Hidden Creek to the Philly airport.

In my opinion, it didn't even take much making, at least a fair portion of it, and that includes what would've been the 12th hole. It's still there and I could show anyone anytime what it could be or is. In my opinion, right out of the box with about two tablespoons moved that hole would've been one of the greatest in the world. It was definitely the biggest hole I've ever known---there would've been so many things to do and ways to go no matter where you were on it.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 05:56:26 AM »
Brian,

I must disagree with your ascertion, "Although the routing is one of the most important parts of the puzzle it is nothing without great features being designed and built."

Think of it in terms of an office building. I have personally designed the entire electric packages, including lighting, for a number od multi-story buildings. Certainly this would be akin to the "great features" of which you speak on a golf course. Not a single time has anyone credited or accused me of being the architect of the building. That ALWAYS goes to the man who designed the structure upon which the "great features" would be placed.

It is the same with golf courses. The original architect/designer of any course is the person who routed the course. That is the "framework" or "building" upon which the "great features" could be placed. There are many examples of courses, even great ones, where clear credit is given for the design to one person and yet some of the "great features" that make them quite memorable were added later by others, in some cases by years.

The act of adding these "great features" certainly doesn't discredit the one(s) who did the design up to that point to the extent that a new "architect of record" must be refered to, does it?

Niall C

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 06:51:22 AM »
Presumably there wasn't an accurate topo plan available ? OR perhaps the plan he had was completely wrong in its contours such that any routing he came up with on the plan would have been nonsense on the ground ?

If neither of the above are correct I'll go with Jeffs idea about the horse.

Niall

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 09:37:58 AM »
Brian, Tom, Phil, et al:

My own thought on who is a course architect is that it has more to do with the would-be architect's frame of mind. If that person thinks of himself as an architect, then he is one. In our armchair architecture contest we had 8 folks provide a fairly complete routing/design plan for a golf course on a real site. None of them identified themselves as an architect (except for my design associate Tom D.  ;)). So even though some of the plans were incredibly detailed, most of them are not architects.

When it comes to whether feature design or on-site time or a completed course are a requirement of being an architect, I think they are or aren't depending on whether the designer and client believe they are a requirement.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Philippe Binette

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 09:40:53 AM »
To DMoriaty,

there are a lot of courses that have built routed and built with the ''Architect'' on site for only 2 days.

TEPaul

Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 10:05:56 AM »
"Brian,
I must disagree with your ascertion, "Although the routing is one of the most important parts of the puzzle it is nothing without great features being designed and built."


Phil:

I agree with Brian Phillips but only in part. It's just not true to say that a routing is always "nothing" without great features being designed into it. Without the component features designed onto a paper routing, it is basically nothing much more than a plan of particular points, lines and directions, nothing much more.

I have a feeling that the vast majority of participants on this website don't understand that all that well because they have never done anything like creating a routing and presented it to a club or principles for their consideration to have it built.

A basic "stick routing" is nothing much more than a series of points and lines indicating the directions of holes and together a golf course in an overall sequence of distances and directions.

But what I consider to be the second phase of designing (what I've always called the "designing up" phase of a basic stick routing is adding in all the architectural features that will go on the ground such as bunkers and their hazard-like, tees and green-shapes and contours etc, etc.

Who on here other than the professional architects has ever actually designed the latter and had it put in front of a club or principles to have it considered for their approval to actually get build?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 10:09:19 AM »
From the other thread, but probably even more pertinently here...sorry for the double post.

Tom Paul,

I slightly disagree about time for a routing.

We know that HH Barker put together a routing for Joseph Connell of the Merion property during a day's visit.   We also know Merion dismissed it and for reasons I'll mention later, they were probably insulted, as well.

We also know what CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham recommended for the property during their one-day visit in June 1910 and they did in fact "lay it out" for the Merion Committee.   They recommended a "sporty" 6000 yard course with rote, formulaic hole lengths and they put it in writing.    They also recommended purchase of an additional 3 acres because they weren't sure that the property looked at was quite big enough for their pre-fab 6,000 yard course.  I'm sure someone sitting down could place those pre-defined, hole-length jigsaw puzzle pieces somewhere on the map of the property for better or worse, so that would evidently make them the architect of Merion in David's eyes..but evidently the Merion Committee didn't think too much of this stupid idea either, as they shortly started to lay out "many" possible plans for the new property on their own.

We also know that various early "architects", mostly Scottish professionals, would lay out "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon" for another set of starry-eyed novices, each believing they were going to get a first class course, the very best of its type, and those professionals would receive about $25 for their "services".  Of course, this always happened when members of a club hadn't the slightest idea or intent of how to begin on their own, ESPCIALLY and almost solely when a club was just getting started in golf, which was not the case with Merion.

However, THIS is now what David and others are now boiling their arguments down to....that Macdonald and Whigham did an "18 stakes, single-day" routing of Merion in some sudden flash of arrogance and inspiration!

This of course ignores several important facts.

Although there were many one-day early routings, none of them were very good, or seem to have lasted the test of time.   In fact, there were all sorts of problems with them, including drainage, lack of interest, agronomy, etc.

Perhaps Macdonald's sterling "out and back" routing at NGLA was done in a day, because they moved heaven and earth to create the holes there and it's almost "anti-minimalist" in construction and wholly different from Merion in that regard.   :o

This theory also ignores the fact that Merion never asked Macdonald and Whigham for a routing.

It ignores the fact that there is no record or mention of a Macdonald and Whigham routing, layout, plan, construct, or anything else meaning authorship not only in the Merion minutes, but in any news accounts of the time or for the next 25 years Macdonald was alive.

It ignores the fact that the Merion Committee themselves had laid out many plans over the winter of 1911, and also ignores the fact that they "rearranged the course and laid out 5 different plans" of their own after visiting NGLA, and it morevover ignores the fact that the only other mention of plans in the MCC minutes says that Macdonald "reviewed" their plans, and approved one.

It also ignores the fact that for Macdonald to suggest "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon", he'd be dealing with a whole bunch of more important people than the starry eyed novices just starting clubs that most of the early Scottish pros dealt with.   Here he was dealing with Captains of Industry, men of HUGE import, and men who had already built a 15 year old very successful, highly respected golf club that had hosted major championships on their original course and he was dealing with men who had played all over this country for a decade and had travelled abroad and who knew a ton about the early game.

He'd also be telling them that the work they had done for the previous 4 months wasn't worth a damn, and that he could do better in an afternoon!  :o ::) ::) ::) ::)   Think about that!

For him to come in there in the few hours of early April daylight, between meals and reviews of plans and other social niceties, presuming to do a half-assed job of routing a golf course for this well-established, highly respected club in a single day, a practice that was already regularly criticized severely by a maturing and more knowledgeable US Golf world, after he himself had just spent FIVE YEARS trying to get NGLA right, would have been an insulting societal slight of the highest order, and the height of arrogance and stupidity.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:24:07 AM by MikeCirba »

JESII

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 10:19:20 AM »
Tom,

Why is drawing the bunkers on paper (regardless of the detail involved) really any more important than a "basic stick routing"?


DMoriarty

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 10:36:35 AM »
To DMoriaty,

there are a lot of courses that have built routed and built with the ''Architect'' on site for only 2 days.

You don't say? 

Seriously, I realize that.  I just want to see Merion again, so I gave TEPaul the answer he was looking for.   What do you suppose the chances are that he will honor his end of the bargain?

By the way, in this case it was not just the two days on site that matter.   CBM was helping Merion between the two meetings.  Merion had a contour map and it is hard to believe they would have kept it hidden from CBM.  Also, Merion's Construction Committee spent two additional days with CBM at NGLA discussing the project. 

So CBM had plenty of time and opportunity to plan the lay out.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Steve Salmen

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 10:37:13 AM »
Mr. Paul,

Is it because there are a number of out of bounds on the right side of the fairways?

Jay Kirkpatrick

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 10:46:44 AM »
I don't have a dog in this never-ending merion fight (though i would be a willing participant if ever invited to play ;)), but the thread does present an interesting question.  what is the most important aspect of golf course design: routing or features?  put another way, would you rather play a superbly routed golf course with limited design features or a poor routing with very interesting features?  I, personally, always prefer a better routing if for no other reason that fixing features is a much easier task.  A poor routing is hard to overcome...

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 11:15:57 AM »

A basic "stick routing" is nothing much more than a series of points and lines indicating the directions of holes and together a golf course in an overall sequence of distances and directions.

But what I consider to be the second phase of designing (what I've always called the "designing up" phase of a basic stick routing is adding in all the architectural features that will go on the ground such as bunkers and their hazard-like, tees and green-shapes and contours etc, etc.

Who on here other than the professional architects has ever actually designed the latter and had it put in front of a club or principles to have it considered for their approval to actually get build?



Tom,

I think the words in bold are the most pertinent as to whether one is an architect (in a golfing sense). If you've gone that far, you're an architect in my book. You might not be a good one, but you are one.

A set of verbal instructions and some stakes in the ground might be sufficient in some cases, while in other cases only a detailed set of plans and/or much on-site time will suffice. I don't think the method or materials or even whether the course gets built makes one an architect.

To be the architect of record is probably similar (i.e. if the client and the architect himself consider him to be the architect of record, then he is the architect of record, regardless of how many plans he made, or hours/days/weeks/months/years he spent on site).
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Brian Phillips

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Re: Routing and designing a golf course!
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 11:31:50 AM »
Brian,

I must disagree with your assertion, "Although the routing is one of the most important parts of the puzzle it is nothing without great features being designed and built."

Think of it in terms of an office building. I have personally designed the entire electric packages, including lighting, for a number od multi-story buildings. Certainly this would be akin to the "great features" of which you speak on a golf course. Not a single time has anyone credited or accused me of being the architect of the building. That ALWAYS goes to the man who designed the structure upon which the "great features" would be placed.

It is the same with golf courses. The original architect/designer of any course is the person who routed the course. That is the "framework" or "building" upon which the "great features" could be placed. There are many examples of courses, even great ones, where clear credit is given for the design to one person and yet some of the "great features" that make them quite memorable were added later by others, in some cases by years.

The act of adding these "great features" certainly doesn't discredit the one(s) who did the design up to that point to the extent that a new "architect of record" must be refered to, does it?

The part you have designed for a building I would akin to that of irrigation in the ground.  I do not class electric packages as great features.

They would be the style of the windows (bunkers), or foyers (greens) or whatever.  But something like electric cables or lighting in a building I would definitely not class as great features no. ;) That is why you have never been accused of being the architect, same as a plumber or an air condition engineer.

Anyone can do a routing of a site and make it look good on paper (it may take more time than an architect and the routing might be crap).  However, once construction starts you cannot hide and decisions then need to be made on the ground.

That's when a real architect starts to earn his or her money.  Whether it be with detailed drawings or on site supervision that is a personal choice.  Tom Doak, Bill Coore and myself use our own shapers so we don't have to draw much at all whereas some other fantastic architects use very detailed drawings.  It is a choice each individual makes on each project.

This is where the next argument comes up, should Russell and Morcom be given more credit for Melbourne if not equal credit than Mackenzie etc.great routing, but is it the bunkering that really makes the course together with the green sites?

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf