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Tom Huckaby

Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« on: April 20, 2009, 05:40:08 PM »
There's no time better than NOW to discuss this great, great golf course.  A large contigent of GCAers played it yesterday in The King's Putter.  I know it has been discussed many times over many years on this site.  But man it just deserves more comment.

I had a long time in the car to digest it all... and I want to go on record once and for all as saying:

Rustic Canyon is one hell of a great golf course.  It really is what golf can and should be all about.  It is more fun to play than golf really ought to be.  It is vexing, rewarding, frustrating, punishing, joyful, peaceful, all in one.  I am not exaggerating when I say that I can think of no public course in our state that is clearly its superior.  And by that I mean ALL public courses.  Comparing Rustic Canyon to Pebble Beach is intriguing in any case.  Ok likely in the end Pebble comes out on top, but not by much. 

Rustic Canyon is really THAT good.  Hell compare it to all the privates also and it holds its head up very very high also.

And why is it that good?

Because it tests and rewards every part of this game - mental, physical and spiritual - to an extent I just haven't seen hardly anywhere else this side of Sand Hills GC, Cypress Point, places like that. 

Mental:  there is no course in our state that rewards thoughtful play - and punishes careless play - more effectively.  This was proven out in spades yesterday as regulars David Moriarty and David Kelly ass-whupped me and Anthony Gray.   I hit the ball pretty darn well, and tried to play shots I thought were correct; often, they just plain weren't so - too much club was played not allowing for the large anount of bounce and roll, the wind was over or under-played or misjudged as it changed from hole to hole (which it really did!); or too little break was played not allowing for the large effects of contour on firm and fast greens and surrounds; or the wrong miss was hit resulting in a shot hit not that poorly being very very screwed.  Meanwhile the two regulars played to the right spots, knew where not to miss, knew how to judge the wind, and played the correct lines.  But still at times even they seemed to be vexed... that is, after all these hundreds of playings there were still things they were unsure of (or so it seemed). Nevertheless, thoughtful play carried the day BIG TIME and that to me is very very cool.   There were vexing choices on seemingly every shot.  Man that is fun.....

Physical:  no amount of thoughtful play amounts to much if one can't execute; and on top of the vexing choices, the course does indeed reward proper execution and punish the improper to extents that aren't realized (at least by the infrequent visitor) until after the "mistake" is made.  That is, even if one can figure out the proper shot, one pulls it off correctly and if he does, he gets a large reward, and if he doesn't he gets a large penalty.  It's golf on a knife-edge and to me that is exciting as all heck.  An example is the approach to the 13th green wit the pin we had yesterday, kinda in a little bowl on the left side.  One foot over the edge of the top of the bowl and one has a putt darn near impossible to get within six feet; one foot on the inside and it's darn near impossible to FAIL to get within six feet... but even if you know this - well the shot is really only doable coming in from the left side - it's just too tough to stop from the right (add that to the mental challenge above - one must figure this out) but more importantly, knowing and doing remain two very different things... Dave M. and I for example were both coming in from the left, me in a simple light rough lie, him from the hay. He executed, knocked it tight, won the hole.  I failed, left it on top, lost.   There are examples of this all over the course.

Spritual:  on a crowded, hot, windy day... one on which bitching and moaning surely could be excused... I must have mentioned to Dave M. at least 5 times how "tranquil... peaceful" the course is.  And it is!  It is just so QUIET back in that little valley... with so little hustle and bustle... it really struck me.  Here's a course 5 minutes from 500,000 people - and 30 minutes from 3 million - but you'd never know it... it was Sand Hills-esque in terms of tranquility.  Man that is cool in such a relatively urban setting.  Not to get maudlin but it's easy to connect to higher beings while playing this golf course.  And that is oddly something I look for... I sure did not recall that it could be done so easily at Rustic Canyon, but I am here to say it really can.

I know this is all very general and all very vague, and does not address "architectural" specifics held dear in here.  Well if one wants to get into that, let it fly.  This course holds its head proudly in every aspect, I have to believe.

I just came away from yesterday awed.... and this on a day where I got my butt kicked in a round that took 5 1/2 hrs.  Hey, that's a tiny negative for sure - all this firmness and fastness does tend to exacerbate slow play on a course that like all other CA lower-cost publics is crowded on a weekend - but jeez that is a tiny price to pay for the greatness one gets treated to.

I look forward to the thoughts from all others who played it yesterday, and all others familiar with the course.

Damn I wish we had something like it in the Bay Area. 

TH

ps - if I didn't get this in past discussions, well then I was an idiot.  I think I did... but who knows.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 06:51:11 PM »
I count my lucky stars every day to be able to play on a Hanse-designed golf course anytime I want.  I've not been out to Southern California for years, and can't comment on RC, but I do think that Hanse's courses are amazing. 

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 07:14:20 PM »
Tom,
Nice essay, but 5 1/2 hours  :P  is not a 'tiny price' to pay for greatness.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 07:45:52 PM »
Tom,
Nice essay, but 5 1/2 hours  :P  is not a 'tiny price' to pay for greatness.

There's no time better than NOW to discuss this great, great golf course.  A large contigent of GCAers played it yesterday in The King's Putter.  I know it has been discussed many times over many years on this site.  But man it just deserves more comment.

I had a long time in the car to digest it all... and I want to go on record once and for all as saying:

Rustic Canyon is one hell of a great golf course.  It really is what golf can and should be all about.  It is more fun to play than golf really ought to be.  It is vexing, rewarding, frustrating, punishing, joyful, peaceful, all in one.  I am not exaggerating when I say that I can think of no public course in our state that is clearly its superior.  And by that I mean ALL public courses.  Comparing Rustic Canyon to Pebble Beach is intriguing in any case.  Ok likely in the end Pebble comes out on top, but not by much. 

Rustic Canyon is really THAT good.  Hell compare it to all the privates also and it holds its head up very very high also.

And why is it that good?

Because it tests and rewards every part of this game - mental, physical and spiritual - to an extent I just haven't seen hardly anywhere else this side of Sand Hills GC, Cypress Point, places like that. 

Mental:  there is no course in our state that rewards thoughtful play - and punishes careless play - more effectively.  This was proven out in spades yesterday as regulars David Moriarty and David Kelly ass-whupped me and Anthony Gray.   I hit the ball pretty darn well, and tried to play shots I thought were correct; often, they just plain weren't so - too much club was played not allowing for the large anount of bounce and roll, the wind was over or under-played or misjudged as it changed from hole to hole (which it really did!); or too little break was played not allowing for the large effects of contour on firm and fast greens and surrounds; or the wrong miss was hit resulting in a shot hit not that poorly being very very screwed.  Meanwhile the two regulars played to the right spots, knew where not to miss, knew how to judge the wind, and played the correct lines.  But still at times even they seemed to be vexed... that is, after all these hundreds of playings there were still things they were unsure of (or so it seemed). Nevertheless, thoughtful play carried the day BIG TIME and that to me is very very cool.   There were vexing choices on seemingly every shot.  Man that is fun.....

Physical:  no amount of thoughtful play amounts to much if one can't execute; and on top of the vexing choices, the course does indeed reward proper execution and punish the improper to extents that aren't realized (at least by the infrequent visitor) until after the "mistake" is made.  That is, even if one can figure out the proper shot, one pulls it off correctly and if he does, he gets a large reward, and if he doesn't he gets a large penalty.  It's golf on a knife-edge and to me that is exciting as all heck.  An example is the approach to the 13th green wit the pin we had yesterday, kinda in a little bowl on the left side.  One foot over the edge of the top of the bowl and one has a putt darn near impossible to get within six feet; one foot on the inside and it's darn near impossible to FAIL to get within six feet... but even if you know this - well the shot is really only doable coming in from the left side - it's just too tough to stop from the right (add that to the mental challenge above - one must figure this out) but more importantly, knowing and doing remain two very different things... Dave M. and I for example were both coming in from the left, me in a simple light rough lie, him from the hay. He executed, knocked it tight, won the hole.  I failed, left it on top, lost.   There are examples of this all over the course.

Spritual:  on a crowded, hot, windy day... one on which bitching and moaning surely could be excused... I must have mentioned to Dave M. at least 5 times how "tranquil... peaceful" the course is.  And it is!  It is just so QUIET back in that little valley... with so little hustle and bustle... it really struck me.  Here's a course 5 minutes from 500,000 people - and 30 minutes from 3 million - but you'd never know it... it was Sand Hills-esque in terms of tranquility.  Man that is cool in such a relatively urban setting.  Not to get maudlin but it's easy to connect to higher beings while playing this golf course.  And that is oddly something I look for... I sure did not recall that it could be done so easily at Rustic Canyon, but I am here to say it really can.

I know this is all very general and all very vague, and does not address "architectural" specifics held dear in here.  Well if one wants to get into that, let it fly.  This course holds its head proudly in every aspect, I have to believe.

I just came away from yesterday awed.... and this on a day where I got my butt kicked in a round that took 5 1/2 hrs.  Hey, that's a tiny negative for sure - all this firmness and fastness does tend to exacerbate slow play on a course that like all other CA lower-cost publics is crowded on a weekend - but jeez that is a tiny price to pay for the greatness one gets treated to.

I look forward to the thoughts from all others who played it yesterday, and all others familiar with the course.

Damn I wish we had something like it in the Bay Area. 

TH

ps - if I didn't get this in past discussions, well then I was an idiot.  I think I did... but who knows.

J. Kennedy, these GCA guys don't play as fast as they post!
Tom:  While I am obviously biased, and thus won't say much, your comment about the Davids having to use some thought on many shots is very important.  As much as we have played the course, there is still much to be learned for them and I every time out.  It fulfills Mackenzie's test for a good course. 
I wished you could have watched Mike Benham's round, he controlled his direction, ball height and distance exceedingly well and shot a 76 (3 3 putts I think) in pretty tough conditions.  He is about the best 4 I have seen.
It was a highlight of the event for you all to drive down for the day.  I suspect you are paying for it today, but you won many admirers.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 08:02:04 PM »
Lynn,
One of the recurring themes when folks wrote about RC is that the course had them thinking, in a good way. Can't always say that when you're throwing your shoes in the trunk.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 08:14:05 PM »

I wished you could have watched Mike Benham's round, he controlled his direction, ball height and distance exceedingly well and shot a 76 (3 3 putts I think) in pretty tough conditions.  He is about the best 4 I have seen.
It was a highlight of the event for you all to drive down for the day.  I suspect you are paying for it today, but you won many admirers.



You obviously haven't played with bend it like Benham at a "tough" course. He's known to throw up the occasional 90.....

:)

(Sorry I missed it)

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon New
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2009, 09:17:34 PM »
I think Tom nails a lot of what went through my head on the way back as well.  Just like every round, I replay it in my head.  So driving 5+ hours back to SF gave me plenty of time...

Anyway, our foursome composed of David Miller, Scott Henderson, Tommy Naccarato, and myself had the local knowledge input with Tommy and eventhough he pointed out all kinds of things to look out for ... you still had to execute and have a deft touch.  Then throw in the wind ... and it's night and day from my round in '05 where conditions were totally different.

The greens and surrounds are just a huge part of it here.  I thought I played decently for the most part, but got my teeth kicked in on or around the greens.

As much as Soule Park provided a great "preview" for what was to come regarding the shaved surrounds to the greens, you still have to figure out how to play those surrounds.  Wedges won't work unless you've got some serious grind to deal with those tight lies.  Using the 9i or 7i is really tricky for distance control.  I clipped more than a few where I thought they'd get close ... but not even.  So it's down to the putter.  Either way, it's going to call for some serious touch and picking a good line ... even if it's a defensive line. 

I heard more than a few mention the greens being a little on the slow side, and I've have to disagree except for a few that have the game to be on in regulation all the time and near the hole.  Playing from the surrounds with any more speed on the greens would become a fiasco.  It would create too much of an imbalance between the surrounds and the greens.

I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this (first time I've seen this) but I noticed the sheen of the fairways on several holes was split into two.  The riskier drive to the one side of the fairway could be rewarded with a glossy sheen (meaning the grass was cut slightly shorter and providing better role).  Whereas the less risky side had a duller matt like sheen (slightly longer cut and not providing much role).  Then there was some reasonable rough after that on both sides of the fairways.  I think although this rewarded the bolder drive, it was a little too obvious about the "landing strip" kind of feel.  I'm curious what others think about this.  Overall conditions were great I thought.  I don't know how they're doing it with little water, but I was impressed.

But there was one hole that felt over the top a little.  I'm talking about the par 3 15th.  I think conditions contributed a lot to this, but it got silly on this one.  The slope is just a wee bit too much action I feel.  David hit a great putt from way down the surrounds to within about a foot or two and ... the ball just wouldn't stay ... and down back the slope it went.  I had the same happen to me from the left fringe by the left greenside bunker, but was lucky and the ball stopped before going back down too far down the slope.

But other than that ... just a blast and they did it without adding a bunch of ponds or lakes.  Go figure...




« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 10:45:07 AM by Patrick Kiser »
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2009, 09:33:18 PM »
Re: Pace of play, the trouble is that Rustic Canyon does nothing to regulate pace of play. Moriarty and I went off first at 6:00 am yesterday morning for a warmup round and ended up finishing about an hour ahead of the next group. And that was with a lot of screwing around and playing in winds of around 25-30mph. 

So when the GCAers started teeing off in mid morning you had an already slow pace combined with 90+ degree temperatures, high winds, very firm and fast conditions, tough pins, and the usual GCA event slowness.  So while 5:30 rounds are unacceptable, they were also predictable.

BTW, I thought the superintendent,  Jeff Hicks,  did a fantastic job setting up the course yesterday.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 10:40:17 PM by David Kelly »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 10:06:59 PM »
Patrick Kiser

 RC #15 has had other disparaging remarks in the past.  Just too far over the top probably describes it.  I recall one of my playing group in 2007 (was it Joe Perches's?) played a pearl to a back pin, and just finished in the back bunker.  It would have been less penalty if the green had a rear lake as a laetral hazard.

A 3 on #15 is something to be treasured, and to be thankful for.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 10:45:46 PM »
Don't get me wrong - it would be great to have Rustic in the Bay Area - but I think it's overrated. I mentioned this in a prior thread, but I think that Rustic has two clear flaws.

1. Four par-5's, all in the same direction, the same amount uphill, with similar teeshots, all within 16 yards of each other in length, all in the space of 9 holes. Any of them alone with the possible exception of 9 is OK, but they make a weak group combined. I think the course would be much better if the par-5's were set up at a variety of lengths (fixable), but would have been far better if the par-5's were oriented with a mix of up-the-valley and down-the-valley holes (not really fixable now). Major routing flaw.

2. Lack of variety around the greens. Sorry, but every time you miss the green, you putt. Where's the fun in that? I like chipping and think it's interesting. Options? Not really. You'd have to be crazy to hit anything except a putter. I think the course would be much better without those giant bentgrass collars that are basically extensions of the greens. Sturdier grass would introduce some uncertainty and decision making into shots around the green.

Why does everybody seem to ignore these flaws?

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 10:58:24 PM »
Why does everybody seem to ignore these flaws?

Because there is the slight possibility that they may not agree with your assessments.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 12:21:28 AM »
Or maybe it is cause your first statement is wrong?? ;) #1 par 5 runs down the valley.. all the others do run up the valley, but they all Offer something different on the tee shot and the approach. The routing is not a MAJOR flaw IMO, because of the differences of the holes, All The holes all play very different IMO... Just out of Curiosity How many times have you played there?? It does get better with each play...


David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 01:18:37 AM »
Rustic Canyon is one hell of a great golf course.  It really is what golf can and should be all about.  It is more fun to play than golf really ought to be. 
The course has been discussed a lot so I will just go on record as saying I agree 100%. 

How the course doesn't comfortably make anyone's list of the top 100 in the US is beyond me.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 01:30:52 AM »
Tom H.

Glad you enjoyed the round, and thanks for not mentioning the shank I hit past your ankles to get into the straw on 13.   Interesting you would choose the 13th as your example, because I think most would find front left to be by far the easiest and least interesting pin position on that green.  Yet there is still plenty to think about and opportunity to hit some fun shots, especially if you get out of position either on or off the green.  In my experience this is pretty typical of the entire course. 

I cannot speak for D Kelly, but as for me, despite many plays I am still vexed every time I play out there, and only partially because I suck.   It seems that once I start to figure out and avoid a subtle danger, I overcompensate and back right into another unnoticed or forgotten pitfall.   Plus, just deciding the best shot to hit (50 yard putt, anyone?) can throw me off balance a bit. 
__________________________

Matt Cohn, 

Most of the greens have rough/bunkers/native bordering a substantial portion of the green, so if you don't like playing off the collars then you could try to miss to the side with the type of trouble you prefer.  I find this other stuff all the time, and I am not even looking for it. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2009, 01:36:38 AM »
Lynn -

Thanks for the compliment but anyone who has seen your swing comments on the silkiness and tempo, something I hope to have when I am even older ... ;)


Jed -

And thanks, I think ... but which "tough" course are you speaking about, Morgan Creek or Cal Club ? 
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2009, 01:54:13 AM »
Very descriptive post Huckster. I agree with all of your salient points.

Personally, I think the greatness of Rustic Canyon is defined by two principle features.

1) The greens and surrounds offer very tough challenges that demand skillful execution, yet they allow players to select from any number of options (low runner, soft pitch, putt, etc.) to play to their own strengths. I played every club between putter and 7-iron from just about every ten-yard increment between 5 an 95 yards from the pin (Matt must only miss the greens on the proper sides if he ALWAYS putts from off the green).

2) Nearly every hole can and should be played a number of different ways from tee to green, depending on the pin position, weather, and the individual player's strengths.

That course could never grow tiresome. Awesome place. Great price. Happy vibes.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 02:11:21 AM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2009, 02:12:46 AM »


A shot from my introduction to Rustic Canyon at the end of 2006. Those contours on the 15th green play havoc!
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 07:52:29 AM »
Geez Tom, I'll tell you what I learned....what a beast RC can be!  I would have more fun going down into my basement and repeatedly slamming my thumb with a hammer then playing RC day in/day out under those wind and course setup conditions.  JC

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 07:58:23 AM »
this great, great golf course. 

Just to take the edge of Tom's hyperbole, I must again state that I apparently don't "get" Rustic Canyon.  It is indeed a good (the exact term used by Lynn Shackleford) golf course, but from behind the back comments of many rather erudite posters, one might say its greatness is a Calicentric consensus.

I agree with Matt Cohn btw.

Bogey
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 09:15:00 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2009, 09:07:39 AM »
I can agree a little bit with Matt Cohn's comments regarding the similarity in strategy if you miss the green.  I did find in my time playing there that I spent a good bit of time putting or chipping with mid irons, but that's because I happen to be good at that. Look at it another way and tell me if you miss any green surrounded by rough, what options do you have? None...SW it is.  Sure, missing RC's 2nd green short, most would pull a putter, but is there anything preventing you from hitting a spinning SW back to the hole?  No.

So, while I see your critique's origins, the conclusion you reach is false.  You are saying you are left with no options other than putting...when that could not be farther from the truth.

Regarding the Par 5s as a weakness, you have got to be joking.  I do not believe there is a finer set of par 5s at any golf course in Southern California, and while I have not played enough golf to really compare at a deep level, I cannot think of a course that has better par 5s out of the great courses I have played....on the west coast alone CPC, Riviera, LACC, 3 Bandon courses, none of them have the strategic interest of Rustic when talking about the Par 5s alone.

As for the same direction, first consider the site, and please explain how you'd propose to better route the par 5s. This, alone doesn't mean the routing is GOOD, but we must tip our cap to reality as well. Saying that all of these 550 yard holes are oriented up/down canyon is akin to critiquing the 8th hole because it's not alongside an ocean. There's simply no other way to do it, and let's look a little closer.

Up canyon is a general direction, but it's by no means "the same" when comparing say, the 9th hole to the 13th.  Check out an aerial.  You might think it's the same, but there is a solid 40 degrees in differential between the direction they face - the 9th being Northwest and the 13th being North/Northeast. So, we can discuss your criticism in the general sense (up-canyon) but in the actual sense, especially on a course so affected by wind, they play differently.

Even ignoring the routing element of your critique, considering each hole in a vacuum, they are consistently excellent, with the exception of the 9th.  The green complexes are all entirely different, as are the tee shots. I'll ignore the first, because we can surely agree that one is in no way similar to any others.

The 5th tee plays games with you regarding angles and blindness off the tee, and tries to tilt you toward the tree/hazard left

The 9th is agreed as a rather boring tee shot, but the green may make you think more with a SW in your hand than any other of the par 5s.

The 10th, with the new bunkering, is a diagonal hazard that a long hitter can reach, and the more you go right, the longer you can hit it, but beware the cleverly placed bathtub bunker. There is no way to reach the green without challenging the right side.

The 13th is, well, one of my favorite golf holes on the planet, so there is no mileage here in talking about this as a weak link.  The tee shot is perfect, the green is perfect. It is the best hole on the course.

The lengths may be similar, but they certainly do not play alike.  If there is one course in CA where the yardages do not matter, it's Rustic Canyon.  I honestly could not tell you what the yardage for any of the non par 3s is there.  I just know that at 6:15am the 2nd hole is a 3w plus a 6-9 iron, depending on the wind.  One might guess the hole was somewhere around 410-420 yards based on this....imagine my surprise when I saw a number much higher than that on the scorecard.

The 2nd and 11th holes are of approximately the same length.  Would you offer the same criticism between these two?  Same goes for 14, 16, and 18.  All 5 of these par 4s are within something like 25 yards of one another.  Is that a problem?

I do not believe the course is above criticism, by any means.  The 7th green is a joke, the 15th can get out of hand in dry windy conditions and the tee box does unfairly set the golfer up back toward the 14th fairway, but the two elements you've chosen are the wrong ones to pick on.  I would happily play all 5 of those par 5s if they were consecutive holes...screw the routing, they are damn good golf holes, and any out/back configuration is going to have a good number of them oriented in the same GENERAL direction.

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 09:38:54 AM »



Jed -

And thanks, I think ... but which "tough" course are you speaking about, Morgan Creek or Cal Club ? 

That's a joke.

I think we bookended high 80s scores at Cal though.

:)

Tom Huckaby

Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 10:12:48 AM »
I am pleased my Topic has generated some discussion even before most KP players have seen it.  I was hoping it would.

David M. - it was one hell of a fun round for sure, thanks man.  But re choosing 13 for my example, that did come immediately to mind really because of the results of our play!  There I was with an easy shot, you with a hard one, you executed, I didn't, but in terms of where the two balls were at one point in their paths, they couldn't have been more than a foot or two apart... Mine stayed up high (screwed), yours got below (ended up close).  It's just the type of "knife-edge" golf that really makes that course so exciting.  But yes, you're right!  That occurred on what must be the simplest position on that fantastic green.... and heck yeah it's just one example of what can occur all over that course.  That's really what I had in mind.

Jon C. - oh a beast it was, for sure.  And I wonder too if that would get old after awhile.... I know I'd have a hard time seeking out 5.5 hour rounds and VERY high wind there, that's for sure.  However, for a change of pace... good God was that fun.  And look at it this way - it surely can't ALWAYS be that way there... the winds were ever-changing during our round, so obviously each round must be a new and different adventure.  And re pace of play, hell what can one expect mid-day Sunday on a great AND CHEAP California public course?  Had we been at Santa Teresa it would have taken an hour LONGER, and no one would have been praising any architectural greatness, that's for sure.  Thus I feel bad now I even mentioned the pace of play... it was just meant as one tiny "balancing" comment.  It's surely no knock on the course.  Heck play with the Davids early am and 3 hours will be the LONGEST you take.

Mike H. - you are not alone in not "getting" Rustic Canyon.  And maybe it is a California phenomenon to praise it so.  I don't think so, however, as ours is VERY MUCH two different states.  For a NorCal guy like me tog gush about anything SoCal besides my beloved hometown sports teams requires a HUGE swallowing of pride.  Put it this way - I WANT this course to be over-rated.  I really really do. It hurts more than you know for me to type "we have nothing like it in the Bay Area."  But truth is truth.  We don't.  This course is really that great.

Matt - I believe Ryan addressed your comments more eloquently than I possibly could.  My take would just simply be that I sincerely believe my generalities trump your specifics in the overall assessment.  That is, even if what you say is true... it really doesn't change my opinion.

Lynn S - a round with Benham (and Pieracci) is always time well-spent.  Each of them can golf their ball, that's for sure... and each are very fine gentlemen.  I consider myself lucky to have befriended them.  Yes Mike can play a game with which I am unfamiliar... that is mistake-free.  But heck, I think I can speak for all of us in saying the pleasure was all ours.... and that we just regret we couldn't stay longer!

« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:17:31 AM by Tom Huckaby »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 10:25:47 AM »
Tom, very well said in regards to Rustic. It never ceases to amaze me how how I come away from the course loving and respecting it more than I did the last time I played it. Rustic nevers gets boring. I envy Moriarty and Kelly that they get to play it as often as they do. Like with any course, you'll get a few who don't get it, but Rustic Canyon is every bit a masterpiece.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 10:29:39 AM »
Very impressed with MIke Benham.  How do you drive 5 hours, jump out of the car and shoot 76 at Rustic Canyon?

Subtly studly.


Tom Huckaby

Re: Let's talk Rustic Canyon
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 10:31:02 AM »
Tom, very well said in regards to Rustic. It never ceases to amaze me how how I come away from the course loving and respecting it more than I did the last time I played it. Rustic nevers gets boring. I envy Moriarty and Kelly that they get to play it as often as they do. Like with any course, you'll get a few who don't get it, but Rustic Canyon is every bit a masterpiece.

I'd say the two Davids have the most valuable "membership" in our state....

 ;D

JK - Benham didn't have to drive.  Hey I drove, got a ticket, and managed a smooth 83 (entirely giving up after being closed out in the fourball, and almost keeping up with Spaulding in beer consumption)... can I get some love?   ;D



« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 10:35:36 AM by Tom Huckaby »

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