[Chuck Brown]

With the silly season of annual course rankings upon us, with some of the lists and rankings drawing extreme ridicule, and even the whole process of ranking "the best" drawing some sarcasm, it occurred to me that one list we might all agree on, down to the number, would be a list of the "Ten Most Important" golf course designs.

"Most Important" would be defined as "Having the most influence on how other courses were subsequently designed, having the most influence on how the game is played, and having the most effect on the game as we know it today."

I dare say that this is a list that is pretty easy to draw up, in comparison to any of the "Best" or "Greatest" lists now in circulation...
My list of The Ten Most Important Golf Courses:
1.    The Old Course
2.    Prestwick
3.    Royal Dornoch
4.    Cypress Point Club
5.    Augusta National Golf Club
6.    National Golf Links of America
7.    Oakmont Country Club
8.    Yale University Golf Club
9.    Sand Hills Club
10.  Tournament Players’ Club – Sawgrass

Coincidentally this week, I might concede that the most controversial part of the list is the omission of Harbor Town, which is a favorite on other "most important" lists I've seen.  I used to think that Harbor Town was a "most important" design.  It may be a "most important" course for Pete Dye, but I don't think it makes this list.

But here is the one-line rationale for all of them:
1.  The Old Course.  Is any explanation needed?  The home of golf, the model for Old Tom, the origination of 18 holes, the one immutable influence for every importantat golf course designer in the history of golf course architecture as we know it.
2.  Prestwick.  The home of The Open.  The original championship golf course.  The original living encylcopedia of golf course "architecture."  Prestwick is listed with a very deep bow of appreciation to North Berwick, incidentally.  It would not bother me a bit to find a place for North Berwick on this list.
3.  Dornoch.  Dornoch=Donald Ross=About 10,000 courses designed by Ross, or wannabe Ross.
4.  Cypress Point Club.  The glorious meeting of land and sea gave us the glorious meeting of Alister MacKenzie and Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.  See, ANGC.
5.  For better and worse, Augusta defined American golf for the last half of the twentieth century.  Oceans of green.  Fast, fast fast putting surfaces.  Acres of unreal blooming azaleas.  Golf courses stretching from 7,000 yards toward 8,000 yards.  Not to mention, annually hosting the most influential golf tournament or our time.  Only pride of originality places Augusta behind CPC.  Augusta, for all its evolution and current disagreeability, could well be #2 on this list.
6.  The National.  The first great American Golf Course, the spiritual center of the birth of golf in North America despite 100 competing claims.  The American travelogue of Scottish golf, and that idea of itself became a model for the rest of American golfing history.
7.  Oakmont.  The model for big, brutish American Country Clubs.  Length.  Splashy bunkering.  (Would you care to subsititute Pine Valley?  Be my guest, except that for all of its obvious merits, I don't think Pine Valley has anything like the visibility and influence as Oakmont.)
8.  Yale.  Is this controversial?  I'd think not.  The original "mega-project."  The taking of dumpy, inhospitable swampland around New Haven, and, in the biggest dollar-amount project golf had ever known (and ever would know, for decades to follow), transformed it into a MacDonald/Raynor work of art.  Even if the course itself did not become an influential model, this 'project' certainly did.  Americans would, thereafter, build a golf course ANYWHERE.
9.  Sand Hills.  From before the time it opened, the most influential design work to kick off the 21st century.  (Starting about seven or eight years before the century did.)  Surely, every great course "built" since Sand Hills ("built" in quotes since there wasn't much building), from the Bandon courses to Sebonack to Friar's Head to even the new/ancient Askernish, probably owes something to the idea of Sand Hills, if not the course itself.
10.  TPC Sawgrass.  Why can't Pamela Anderson be on a list of "most influential beauties"?  This is what Stadium Golf is.  That's all.  Nothing more, nothing less.  This might not have been the first Stadium Course.  It's the one that has stuck, though.  Golf architecture cognoscenti might sneer, but this is what people the world over really think about in terms of "tour golf."

I've left off some great courses.  Pinehurst.  (See, Dornoch.)  Pebble Beach.  (See, CPC.)  Shinnecock Hills.  (See, NGLA.)  Chicago GC.  (Ditto.) Winged Foot.  (See, Oakmont.)  Muirfield, N. Berwick, Troon, Turnberry.  Royal St. George's.  (The first great residential/golf evelopment?  I'd love to find a place on the list for RSG.)  Merion.  All of the great Tillinghast courses.  The LA triumverate of Riviera, Bel Air and LACC.  The desert courses.  The Melbourne sandbelt courses.  All great.  All important. 

But those courses didn't have the influence of the ones I've listed, for the reasons stated.  By the way, I seemed to recall a similar thread on this subject matter, but "search" didn't find anything for me.  I know there'll be some disagreement.  This is the 'net, after all.  But I think this kind of list merits a lot more studied agreement than a "Best" or "Greatest" list.

[Sean_A]

With the silly season of annual course rankings upon us, with some of the lists and rankings drawing extreme ridicule, and even the whole process of ranking "the best" drawing some sarcasm, it occurred to me that one list we might all agree on, down to the number, would be a list of the "Ten Most Important" golf course designs.

"Most Important" would be defined as "Having the most influence on how other courses were subsequently designed, having the most influence on how the game is played, and having the most effect on the game as we know it today."

I dare say that this is a list that is pretty easy to draw up, in comparison to any of the "Best" or "Greatest" lists now in circulation...
My list of The Ten Most Important Golf Courses:
1.    The Old Course
2.    Prestwick
3.    Royal Dornoch
4.    Cypress Point Club
5.    Augusta National Golf Club
6.    National Golf Links of America
7.    Oakmont Country Club
8.    Yale University Golf Club
9.    Sand Hills Club
10.  Tournament Players’ Club – Sawgrass

Coincidentally this week, I might concede that the most controversial part of the list is the omission of Harbor Town, which is a favorite on other "most important" lists I've seen.  I used to think that Harbor Town was a "most important" design.  It may be a "most important" course for Pete Dye, but I don't think it makes this list.

But here is the one-line rationale for all of them:
1.  The Old Course.  Is any explanation needed?  The home of golf, the model for Old Tom, the origination of 18 holes, the one immutable influence for every importantat golf course designer in the history of golf course architecture as we know it.
2.  Prestwick.  The home of The Open.  The original championship golf course.  The original living encylcopedia of golf course "architecture."  Prestwick is listed with a very deep bow of appreciation to North Berwick, incidentally.  It would not bother me a bit to find a place for North Berwick on this list.
3.  Dornoch.  Dornoch=Donald Ross=About 10,000 courses designed by Ross, or wannabe Ross.
4.  Cypress Point Club.  The glorious meeting of land and sea gave us the glorious meeting of Alister MacKenzie and Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.  See, ANGC.
5.  For better and worse, Augusta defined American golf for the last half of the twentieth century.  Oceans of green.  Fast, fast fast putting surfaces.  Acres of unreal blooming azaleas.  Golf courses stretching from 7,000 yards toward 8,000 yards.  Not to mention, annually hosting the most influential golf tournament or our time.  Only pride of originality places Augusta behind CPC.  Augusta, for all its evolution and current disagreeability, could well be #2 on this list.
6.  The National.  The first great American Golf Course, the spiritual center of the birth of golf in North America despite 100 competing claims.  The American travelogue of Scottish golf, and that idea of itself became a model for the rest of American golfing history.
7.  Oakmont.  The model for big, brutish American Country Clubs.  Length.  Splashy bunkering.  (Would you care to subsititute Pine Valley?  Be my guest, except that for all of its obvious merits, I don't think Pine Valley has anything like the visibility and influence as Oakmont.)
8.  Yale.  Is this controversial?  I'd think not.  The original "mega-project."  The taking of dumpy, inhospitable swampland around New Haven, and, in the biggest dollar-amount project golf had ever known (and ever would know, for decades to follow), transformed it into a MacDonald/Raynor work of art.  Even if the course itself did not become an influential model, this 'project' certainly did.  Americans would, thereafter, build a golf course ANYWHERE.
9.  Sand Hills.  From before the time it opened, the most influential design work to kick off the 21st century.  (Starting about seven or eight years before the century did.)  Surely, every great course "built" since Sand Hills ("built" in quotes since there wasn't much building), from the Bandon courses to Sebonack to Friar's Head to even the new/ancient Askernish, probably owes something to the idea of Sand Hills, if not the course itself.
10.  TPC Sawgrass.  Why can't Pamela Anderson be on a list of "most influential beauties"?  This is what Stadium Golf is.  That's all.  Nothing more, nothing less.  This might not have been the first Stadium Course.  It's the one that has stuck, though.  Golf architecture cognoscenti might sneer, but this is what people the world over really think about in terms of "tour golf."

I've left off some great courses.  Pinehurst.  (See, Dornoch.)  Pebble Beach.  (See, CPC.)  Shinnecock Hills.  (See, NGLA.)  Chicago GC.  (Ditto.) Winged Foot.  (See, Oakmont.)  Muirfield, N. Berwick, Troon, Turnberry.  Royal St. George's.  (The first great residential/golf evelopment?  I'd love to find a place on the list for RSG.)  Merion.  All of the great Tillinghast courses.  The LA triumverate of Riviera, Bel Air and LACC.  The desert courses.  The Melbourne sandbelt courses.  All great.  All important. 

But those courses didn't have the influence of the ones I've listed, for the reasons stated.  By the way, I seemed to recall a similar thread on this subject matter, but "search" didn't find anything for me.  I know there'll be some disagreement.  This is the 'net, after all.  But I think this kind of list merits a lot more studied agreement than a "Best" or "Greatest" list.

Chuck

Considering the idea of architecture started in the UK I think you are light in that department.  Specifically, I can't see a list of importance being terribly accurate without at least some mention of a heathlands course - probably a Colt course - who is arguably the most influential architect ever.

Ciao

[cary lichtenstein]

I didn't see Tobacco Road on the list. Shame

[Chuck Brown]

Ack!  - I had written "Royal St. George's" when I meant to write, "St. George's Hill," which neatly addresses Sean's rightful complaint....!

Edit. - Sean, I had second thoughts, that my list was exclusively Scotland-and-the-U-S-of-A.  At least my top three were (easily) all Scotland...  Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, and observing the last century of golf, I'm comfortable with it.

[Sean_A]

Ack!  - I had written "Royal St. George's" when I meant to write, "St. George's Hill," which neatly addresses Sean's rightful complaint....!

Edit. - Sean, I had second thoughts, that my list was exclusively Scotland-and-the-U-S-of-A.  At least my top three were (easily) all Scotland...  Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, and observing the last century of golf, I'm comfortable with it.

Chuck

Very fine, we can agree to disagree about the importance of the heathlands in the evolution of architecture and how that influenced parkland courses which followed.  One other consideration may be the exclusion of Pacific Dunes.  The introduction of the first real links in the USA must be considered ground breaking because of its influence.  I spsoe that means at least one course must go from your list to accommodate an alternative and my suggestion would be Cypress Point.  That leaves room for the glorious meeting of Dr Mac and RTJJr. 

I would also like to find a way to place Merion on the list, but I am not sure how.  I suspect it would mean Yale would bite the dust.  That said, I also think there is a strong shout for Woking for a number of reasons.  1) It was a course gradually born from from a dreadful site. 2) It may be the first inland course to incorporate "laid down" ideas of strategy.  3) I think it is a real link between TOC and ANGC in how it demonstrated the incorporation of original links strategy.  Again, what goes?  Perhaps NGLA for it is arguable that CBM was the real influence on design rather than his designs themselves.  I have long thought that the world of architecture was turning just as CBM came along with his grand ideas and he certainly had say 7 toes in the past and 3 in the future so far as actual design ideas go.  That said, I can also see an argument that it is unlikely for an archie to be influential without influential designs, but for this argument to work in CBM's case I would like to hear how his design ideas were influential.  Where do we see evidence of his work carrying through to actually influencing others?

Ciao 

[Greg Tallman]

Scotland Yards by Bill Rinaldo is a glaring omission

[Tim Bert]

I'll add Crystal Downs to that list for the influence it has had on Doak and DeVries (as well as probably countless others in the field.)

[Mike Boehm]

I think Oakland Hills South deserves some consideration for the list.  For better or worse, it was the first mover in the charge to alter classic golf courses to host major championships.

[Chuck Brown]

I think Oakland Hills South deserves some consideration for the list.  For better or worse, it was the first mover in the charge to alter classic golf courses to host major championships.

I understand your point.  In that regard, "Robert Trent Jones" would be the architect.  Not Donald Ross.  "Alteration" as "Design."

It is a perfectly valid, if unsettling, notion.  In the Pro V1 era, it is altogether too common.  We could easily count an equal number of gross overhauls of classic designs (OHCC, Inverness, Scioto, Hazeltine, etc.) as we could new classic courses in the mold of Sand Hills, Bandon & Pac Dunes, etc.  Maybe more.

There's just too much negativity associated with such gross alterations for me to grant it any kind of reward...

[Mike_Clayton]

I am not sure you can leave out Royal Melbourne.
Arguably MacKenzie's best course, the best course in the southern hemisphere and a serious influence on many architects.

[Chuck Brown]

Mike, it is hard to leave out a number of really great golf courses and indeed the Royal Melbourne complex must be regarded as perhaps Mackenzie's best.  But I think CPC did more to make him noteworthy, and did more to then place him in a position to later do Augusta, the University of Michigan, OSU-Scarlet, Pasatiempo, etc.

It would be so much easier to put Royal Melbourne on a list of "best" courses than on a list of "most important/influential"...

[Philippe Binette]

I think Harbour Town is more important architecturally than TPC Sawgrass... it was the breakthrough for Pete Dye and a course built like no other since WWII

[Tom_Doak]

Well, it depends.  Important to whom?

If you are talking about the ten courses which have most influenced ARCHITECTS and design trends, then Chuck's list is not bad.  I don't think Yale should be on it, because Lido and Banff [among others] preceded it in the mega-course department, and National was way more influential than Yale.  Strangely enough, I don't know that Oakmont should be there, either, because I've never seen another course that I thought was influenced by Oakmont.

If you are looking at things from a world perspective, I think that Royal Melbourne is a must, and Sunningdale, and maybe even Hirono as the biggest influence on golf in Japan.  I think that the bunkers at Royal Melbourne have been a bigger influence on American golf in the last 25 years (on everybody from Steve Smyers to Ben Crenshaw) than any other feature or course.

On the other hand, if you want to look at it from the PUBLIC's perspective of architecture, then I think you would make the case for Pebble Beach (going back to 1970's Clambake telecasts) and Harbour Town and maybe Pacific Dunes to be on the list.  A lot more people have been through Bandon in the last ten years than will ever set foot at Sand Hills.

Chuck, if you are following your rationale in your last post then you ought to include courses from ten different architects and not just MacKenzie and Macdonald.

[Andy Troeger]

I think Harbour Town is more important architecturally than TPC Sawgrass... it was the breakthrough for Pete Dye and a course built like no other since WWII

That's a good point, but TPC Sawgrass has been much more heavily copies (for better or worse), to me making it a little more important in the grand scheme of things.

If you're picking a course from the Monterey Peninsula I'd have to at least consider Pebble Beach for this list even though CPC is the better course.

[Chuck Brown]

Well, it depends.  Important to whom?

If you are talking about the ten courses which have most influenced ARCHITECTS and design trends, then Chuck's list is not bad.  I don't think Yale should be on it, because Lido and Banff [among others] preceded it in the mega-course department, and National was way more influential than Yale.  Strangely enough, I don't know that Oakmont should be there, either, because I've never seen another course that I thought was influenced by Oakmont.

If you are looking at things from a world perspective, I think that Royal Melbourne is a must, and Sunningdale, and maybe even Hirono as the biggest influence on golf in Japan.  I think that the bunkers at Royal Melbourne have been a bigger influence on American golf in the last 25 years (on everybody from Steve Smyers to Ben Crenshaw) than any other feature or course.

On the other hand, if you want to look at it from the PUBLIC's perspective of architecture, then I think you would make the case for Pebble Beach (going back to 1970's Clambake telecasts) and Harbour Town and maybe Pacific Dunes to be on the list.  A lot more people have been through Bandon in the last ten years than will ever set foot at Sand Hills.

Chuck, if you are following your rationale in your last post then you ought to include courses from ten different architects and not just MacKenzie and Macdonald.

Plagiarizing "The Gourmet's Choice" would have been too easy, and wouldn't have prompted such an interesting reply from you.  (Maybe from your lawyers...   )
 
In doing some completely unrelated reading after starting this thread, I had wondered whether there might be a better exemplar of the original "mega-project," and Banff came to mind.  I think it is a valid argument.  I had thought that Yale preceded Banff.  I had also been thinking of all those Yale national championship golf teams, too.  Lido; well, that was before my time...

I've already pled guilty to the lack of internationalization on my list, but I think the nomination of Sunningdale is a particularly noteworthy nominee.

I'm still satisfied with Oakmont's placement in this regard; is it not the avatar for the biggest test, the hardest course in the land?  Whether it is or not?   As a kind of one-off, Tom is of course correct that there are no seroius knockoffs of Oakmont, but as far as setting a kind of standard for difficult golf among the earliest prewar courses, it ranked, and ranked higher than Shinnecock in that regard.

[Jason Connor]

Shouldn't there be some RTJ on the list?

We aren't ranking best, and a course needn't be great to be on this list.

But (and I profess to know little) RTJ seemed to have a large influence.  Enough so that when Pete Dye was trying to break in, his strategy was to be the anti-RTJ at Harbour Town because he thought much the current architecture was similar.

Likewise a lot of what Joe Average Duffer claims to enjoy is pretty RJT-esque.  That's not saying we appreciate it here at GCA, but it was nevertheless influential.

[Adam Clayman]

Chuck- believe that there are some very intelligent people who think pebble is the superior course and have had ample opportunities to formulate such an opinion. I only say that because of a tone eminating from your question.      Maybe if the list were a hundred agreement could be had? The bonus of such a list would be those who learn why a certain course made the list, exposing those even remotely  interested, to the origins and the study of GCA.

[Chuck Brown]

Shouldn't there be some RTJ on the list?

We aren't ranking best, and a course needn't be great to be on this list.

But (and I profess to know little) RTJ seemed to have a large influence.  Enough so that when Pete Dye was trying to break in, his strategy was to be the anti-RTJ at Harbour Town because he thought much the current architecture was similar.

Likewise a lot of what Joe Average Duffer claims to enjoy is pretty RJT-esque.  That's not saying we appreciate it here at GCA, but it was nevertheless influential.

Not too far above, Mike Boehm sort of made a good case for Oakland Hills South, in that category; if I were to put RTJSr. on the list, I think that might be the course would be as representative as any, and the way things are going these days, redesign/renovation is at least as important to the courses we routinely see hosting major championships as the original architecture...

(I know, I know -- the OHCC faithful will claim, very credibly, that almost all of their 18 South Course greens are unchanged from Donald Ross' last visit.  And that not so much should be made of any Trent Jone or Rees Jones redesigns.  I'm just not sure that I could pick a single RTJSr. design that would supplant any of the 10 on my list.)

[Tom_Doak]

I personally think Trent Jones' most influential work (though not his most significant) was his work on holes 15 & 16 at Augusta National -- already included on the list.  Those two were the holes which made the "watery grave" an acceptable and even sexy golf hazard.

[Andrew Summerell]

I would think The West Links at North Berwick deserves to be on that list architecturally for its diagonal hazards to the line of play on holes like #2 & #15, plus quite a few others on the course. As much as Prestwick is important, I don't believe it had as much influence on architecture as NBW did.

[Wyatt Halliday]

I think that the bunkers at Royal Melbourne have been a bigger influence on American golf in the last 25 years (on everybody from Steve Smyers to Ben Crenshaw) than any other feature or course.

Tom,

Do you mean placement, aesthetics, or both?

[Mike Hendren]

National Golf Links of America
Royal County Down
The Old Course
Royal Melbourne (West)
Sand Hills Golf Club
Firestone CC (South)
Wild Dunes
Harbor Town
TPC Sawgrass
Hirono

In no particular order.

[Sean_A]

After some thought, in no particular order

TOC
NGLA
Merion
Sandhills
Pacific Dunes
Sawgrass
Sunningdale
Augusta
Melbourne
Woking

Ciao

[Anthony Butler]

I'm still satisfied with Oakmont's placement in this regard; is it not the avatar for the biggest test, the hardest course in the land?  Whether it is or not?   As a kind of one-off, Tom is of course correct that there are no seroius knockoffs of Oakmont, but as far as setting a kind of standard for difficult golf among the earliest prewar courses, it ranked, and ranked higher than Shinnecock in that regard.

At some point it might become the most influential course on greens committees due to the scale of the tree clearing program.

Watching the 2007 Open, I was struck by how different the course looked (and most likely played) from my visit in 1996. A preference for 'inland links' courses maybe the new trend for golf courses in the 21st century due to the development of Sand Hills and restoration of Oakmont.

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