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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2009, 09:56:46 PM »
Mike Cirba and TEPaul,


With all due respect, I think that you guys must be caricaturing or misunderstanding CBM's architectural style in this thread.   I see nothing in the article that even hints that the article is any type of reaction to CBM's architectural style.   But i am willing to learn . . .

What was CBM's architectural style in 1913?   How does it differ from the style presented in the article?  What in the article indicates that they "were consciously doing it in reaction to NGLA?"

I am sure you have both read Scotland's Gift.   I just glanced through CBM's chapter on Architecture and his thoughts on the subject differ substantially than what you apparently think.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2009, 06:03:54 AM »
"That's fine Tom, they had differences in design philosophies, mainly in the approach to, not the quality of, Macdonald's product.
 
Again, my belief is that these fellows already possessed their own ideas, they were not driven to them because of their distaste for CB's work. The very best of them weren't doing anything different that CBM, they too were practicing the same ideal, that of building the very best golf courses they could, ones with zero clunkers. They took their own paths because of their desire to be the best, and as every 'artist' knows, you must travel on a road of your own making to be seen as 'great'. 

....but I still think the negative articles aimed at Macdonald had more behind them than simple criticism.   ;D"


JimK:


First of all, I don't feel some of the other American architects who were becoming prominent in the teens and 1920s (or a course or a few of theirs were) necessarily had different design philosophies than Macdonald in the sense of fundamental architectural principles but I think some of them certainly did have quite different ideas and philosophies in a style sense. And I'm not at all aware that any of them had any issues with the quality of Macdonld's (or Raynor's) products.

I belief those other fellows, as you call them, did develop their own ideas and I don't necessarily feel it was in reaction to something Macdonald had done or was doing although they seemed to try to head in a direction in architecture they felt exhibited a more natural blending of natural landforms with what they made than what Macdonald had become known for----eg template copies of holes from abroad.

Sometimes, and with a few architects such as Tillie, the knock on Macdonald's modus operandi (copying holes from abroad) was more the result of the use of or at least the idea of the use  of "models" or even the idea of plasticine models that had to be fitted onto the land somehow and for that reason were suspected to not be a natural fit or even a good idea. In my opinion, that was an idea (or a knock) that was more perception than reality (since I'm not aware that Macdonald ever actually did something like that or even tried to or thought about it). Tillie himself used placticine models of golf holes for a time but he did it more in an attempt to show clients or constructors what he wanted done or what he planned to do rather than use it as a copy of something from somewhere else.

Tillie is the only architect I'm aware of who ever criticized in print Macdonald's use of template copies from abroad and as far as I can tell he didn't even write that article until 1939 just after Macdonald died. Reading that article I get the sense it was something of a Tillie eulogy to Macdonald even though he did mention in it that he had some real differences of opinion with Macdonald over the years apparently to do with architecture, perhaps Macdonald's modus operandi (template hole use from abroad) or perhaps the style or semi-engineered look of his architecture (perhaps more of Raynor's who I think too often always was connected to Macdonald even though Macdonald probably had any influence on less that 10% of Raynor's courses) etc.

An architect such as Wilson at Merion however, very definitely began with Macdonald as something of his architectural mentor---ie Wilson and Merion did mention the idea of copying famous holes from abroad or at least the principles and ideas of them that Macdonald advised them about and obviously Wilson (and committee et al) initially attempted to use that idea at Merion East to some limited extent and pretty much just as obviously began to get away from that idea and style in later years as they began to redesign the course. However, I'm not aware that any of them ever said it was in reaction to Macdonald's style. There's little question in my mind that their interest was in more completely blending man-made architecture with the natural character of any particular site or landform (the old adage "to hide the hand of man") and it seems they were aware that Macdonald's (and Raynor's) style was not exactly the best example of that. Mind you, I don't think they ever said his known engineered style was bad architecture at all, just that it was a style they preferred not to copy or follow in the future.

Frankly, I think one of the most interesting things about Merion East (and Wilson et al's style) even initially, is that with only a few limited exceptions (such as the original Alps #10) the Wilson/Flynn et al style at Merion was notably different than Macdonald's style.

I really believe that because I can see it in what they did there. I think that also shows that even though Macdonald certainly did help and advise Merion initially a whole lot more of what he did for them had to do with things other than routing and hole design. I underscore again that the majority of Macdonald's advise to Merion and Wilson had to do with developing reliable agronomy, not architecture, and seemingly a whole lot more.

The style (look) difference is a very important point, in my opinion, because if it didn't exist at all then one could fairly say that their (Wilson, Flynn, Tillie et al) evolving styles wasn't any different than Macdonald/Raynor in look and I think anyone with eyes and an open mind can tell that definitely wasn't and isn't true.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 06:21:48 AM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2009, 06:29:35 AM »
This is an interesting discussion if only because of CBM's style and how it was essentially at odds, at least aesthetically, with what was emerging in England at the time.  I could be well wrong on this, but I seem to recall that the Brits who saw NGLA loved it.  However, this general opinion may more or less represent the old guard as it were.  Does anybody know if the likes of Colt ever saw/commented on NGLA?  How bout later complete converts to what essentially became the Colt style (even in the USA - though I think the big guns in this general style in the US were more penal than Colt ever was - in a way Flynn and Tillie racheted up Colt's style to be more concentrated toward championship/top level golf); Fowler, Park Jr, Simpson? 

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 06:31:55 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2009, 06:35:19 AM »
"Mike Cirba and TEPaul,
With all due respect, I think that you guys must be caricaturing or misunderstanding CBM's architectural style in this thread.   I see nothing in the article that even hints that the article is any type of reaction to CBM's architectural style.   But i am willing to learn . . ."


David Moriarty:

I don't think there is anything at all I can see in that article above that mentions or even hints at some difference with Macdonald's style, and I can't see that I ever said or implied such a thing on this thread. Apparently Mike Cirba thought there might be something in it that indicates that but I can't see it. It would also probably be helpful too in the future if you don't just always group us here in Philadelphia together as always having all the very same ideas on everything, including Macdonald and his style. I'm sure we don't and never have.

I would also appreciate it if you don't say or imply I don't like Macdonald or his style or that I'm being negative about it or about him. Or even that I'm caricaturing it or misunderstanding it. I'm not and never have (other than an occasional attempt at gallows humor on here that never seems to go over very well ;) ). I simply think his style and the look of it is notably different from some of the other architects we are speaking about here through the teens and 1920s, including Hugh Wilson.

And it's not as if I'm not familiar with Macdonald's style since to the extent I was involved in golf when I was young it's what I grew up with in Long Island because my father belonged to Piping Rock, The Links and NGLA. It's what I first knew other than the 3-5 Ross courses he belonged to at different times in Florida or Pennsylvania or whatever.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 06:53:41 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2009, 06:35:45 AM »
Crump and the Smith Brothers and others building Pine Valley were disciples of Herbert Fowler and his writings.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2009, 06:48:14 AM »
David/Jim/Tom,

I'm sure I probably read too much into the article.

I think perhaps I'm struck by the fact that a year after the formal opening of NGLA, and the better part of a decade of Macdonald promoting his idea that one could do no better than to try to emulate the best features of the "ideal hole" abroad that this article seems so less formally prescribing, and seemingly more willing to work within the plusses and minuses of any particular site...particularly avoiding "formality" at all costs.

In fact, I called it "rules", but the article calls these ideas "hints", and it seems much more free-flowing in terms of liberating the artist than trying to bring external models to an internal canvas.

I simply found this an odd article in light of what Macdonald had just accomplished, and his well-known methodologies of the time.

But, as I said, I'm probably reading too deeply into what's there....or perhaps, what's not there.

TEPaul

Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2009, 07:07:21 AM »
"In fact, I called it "rules", but the article calls these ideas "hints", and it seems much more free-flowing in terms of liberating the artist than trying to bring external models to an internal canvas.

I simply found this an odd article in light of what Macdonald had just accomplished, and his well-known methodologies of the time.

But, as I said, I'm probably reading too deeply into what's there....or perhaps, what's not there."



Mike:

I think what this website or certainly some of its contributors need to understand better is that certainly Macdonald had become a real force and reputation in early American architecture with NGLA and the novel approach he brought to the types of holes and sort of GB principles he brought to it and his other courses but that certainly did not mean that everyone else or even very many of them ever tried to copy what he did. All anyone has to do is just look at most of the courses, including some of the best of them back then, to tell that wasn't true.

That idea on here just seems to be another example of how too many people tend to think too much with a sort of "either/or" mentality.  ;)

The history and evolution of golf course architecture, and certainly in America definitely shows it was not that at all and was in fact a whole lot of different ideas, styles, types etc. Its entire tapestry and spectrum was a whole lot richer and more diverse than just some "either/or" type of thing-----as in "either" being Macdonald and his style and model vs "or" being some one other type or different model from his or some one unified reaction to his type, style and model.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 07:10:23 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2009, 07:18:23 AM »
Frankly, if a number of contributors on here are truly interested in thoroughly investigating some reaction of architects and others and such back then to Macdonald's architecture (and the other things he was involved with in golf) I suggest they begin to look not just at Macdonald's golf course architecture but also at Macdonald, the man himself. I have always felt there is a ton to know and to learn in and from that alone. And there is no question in my mind that it very much cut both ways----eg what Macdonald thought of others and what they came to think of him, particularly as the times began to get into the late teens, the early 1920s and on.

However, to even broach that subject on here it seems there are at least some who view that as being unfairly or unnecessarily critical of Macdonald. To me that's bullshit, it was his life, not ours or anyone else's, and it just was what it was. We can't change that by ignoring it, attempting to revise it or pretending it wasn't as it was.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 07:25:55 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2009, 02:14:17 PM »
TEPaul,  I apologize for lumping you in with Mike.  The assumption was based on your comments about the early reaction to CBM's architectural style.   That being said, my point remains.  I do not understand to what elements early commentators and/or designers were rejecting or criticizing.  Perhaps if you actually specifically identified the criticisms and rejections and the object thereof, it would be easier to understand more of what you mean.   

As for the rest of your post, I don't think I have said or implied that you don't like CBM's style.   As for whether you may be misunderstanding it or characterizing it, I could be wrong about that as well.  Again, if you identify more specifically to what you are referring, I might see the error of my impression.   And while you certainly did grow up around some great  courses, and am sure that there must have been much to learn from them, I am not sure how this helps clarify the early criticisms of CBM's early style, or even much about what that early style was.  Again, if you could clarify that would be helpful. 

Frankly, if a number of contributors on here are truly interested in thoroughly investigating some reaction of architects and others and such back then to Macdonald's architecture (and the other things he was involved with in golf) I suggest they begin to look not just at Macdonald's golf course architecture but also at Macdonald, the man himself. I have always felt there is a ton to know and to learn in and from that alone. And there is no question in my mind that it very much cut both ways----eg what Macdonald thought of others and what they came to think of him, particularly as the times began to get into the late teens, the early 1920s and on.

However, to even broach that subject on here it seems there are at least some who view that as being unfairly or unnecessarily critical of Macdonald. To me that's bullshit, it was his life, not ours or anyone else's, and it just was what it was. We can't change that by ignoring it, attempting to revise it or pretending it wasn't as it was.

You've made this suggestion a number of times, both on and off the board, and it sounds like a good idea.  As for me personally, my plate is quite full at the time, so I doubt I will take on this project anytime soon, if ever.   Plus, given that you not only have an interest in this, but also such insight into the subject as well as such great access to much of the source material, I think you may be the person for the job.   Perhaps you could write a fact-filled "In My Opinion" piece on the subject?  I am sure all of us would be very interested to read and discuss it. 

As for the "bullshit" reaction to even broaching the subject, I have no idea to what you refer.   I for one would love to read a detailed factual account of what you have repeatedly implied, and if it is well-reasoned and based on the best evidence available, no reasonable person should be offended or defensive.   
____________________________

Mike,

While I appreciate that you have decided to back well away from your initial position, I still think you might be misunderstanding what you apparently believe was CBM's "formal" approach around this time.    But perhaps given the other topics going on at the same time, that is better left for another day.   
____________________________

This is an interesting discussion if only because of CBM's style and how it was essentially at odds, at least aesthetically, with what was emerging in England at the time. 

I've posted photos in the past from the first few years at NGLA to demonstrate that it is a mistake to assume that CBM's style aesthetic style then is much like what many now misunderstand his style to have been then. 
__________________

Everyone,

My instinct said stay out of this thread, and I probably should have complied.   I just popped in to ask for more details on exactly what you guys mean when you draw these contrasts with CBM's style.     Any such comparisons and contrasts would be much more useful if you would actually offer up the source material backing them up.  Otherwise inaccuracies will likely abound.   It is a point I have tried to make in the past, but one that is worth revisiting occasionally, but hopefully that is enough said by me at least.

Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2009, 03:14:34 PM »

“Compulsory carries over a stretch of water should not be too long.   They are apt to scare the short driver, lose him balls, and cause constipation of the course.”


 It is really hard to make a full swing when the "course" is backed up.  I would recommend 'fiber'glass shafts on these types of golf courses.

(oy)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 03:16:18 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2009, 01:26:49 AM »
Mike,
You sure did read too much into the article, you saw the repudiation of Macdonald between every line. The reader didn't have to go past your first reply to Joe Bausch to see that.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Rules to Live By from 1913 - Do they still apply?
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2009, 10:40:51 AM »

This is an interesting discussion if only because of CBM's style and how it was essentially at odds, at least aesthetically, with what was emerging in England at the time. 

I've posted photos in the past from the first few years at NGLA to demonstrate that it is a mistake to assume that CBM's style aesthetic style then is much like what many now misunderstand his style to have been then. 
__________________

Everyone,

My instinct said stay out of this thread, and I probably should have complied.   I just popped in to ask for more details on exactly what you guys mean when you draw these contrasts with CBM's style.     Any such comparisons and contrasts would be much more useful if you would actually offer up the source material backing them up.  Otherwise inaccuracies will likely abound.   It is a point I have tried to make in the past, but one that is worth revisiting occasionally, but hopefully that is enough said by me at least.

Thanks.

Dave

I am not entirely sure what your response to me means.  Am I to take it that you don't believe CBM was stylistically very different from what was developing in the UK at the time with Colt? 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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