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Sean_A

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KIAWAH OCEAN COURSE: Do or Dye New
« on: April 15, 2009, 04:48:23 AM »
While staying at Kiawah my bro in law, Remy, dragged me out to The Ocean Course for what was likely the most expensive game of golf I have ever played.  I thought about bailing, but this guy has been dreaming of TOC since his side took a beating in the War on the Shore.  I must admit to being interested in how a modern American based archie would treat a piece of property which reputedly has a view of the sea from every hole (a claim I didn't verify).  In any case, I thought a Dye contrasted with a Raynor (Yeamans Hall) would make an interesting pair for a trip. The two really couldn't have been much different! 

Despite my already surly attitude about the price, I did find quite a bit to like about TOC.  #1 had to be the width.  I was shocked to find the course so wide and even though we didn't have that much wind I could easily understand why the width was necessary. Beyond nearly every fairway is trouble - often times water or long gnarly rough.  One thing I did notice about the width is that it is virtually impossible to create 40-50 yard landing zones without having a favoured side of the fairway.  I am not sure why the penny never dropped on this before, but if the greens are at all interesting with wide fairways there must be a favoured side to aim for from the tee. I was also pleasantly surprised by the greens.  I was sort of expecting monstrous creations with all sorts of weird shit going on, but this was not the case.  For the most part the greens made sense and were not too extreme. Plus, despite having had what looked to be a mild hollow tining the greens were in superb condition - the best I have seen since Nairn - rolling somewhere between 9 and 10.  They were quick enough to cause all sorts of trouble from the wrong spots, but not stupid quick. 

The 1st starts off rather gently and the second really gets the ball rolling.  Play right or go over the trees and have a go at this par 5.


What you can't see from the tee if going for it is this crossing hazard.  Additionally, the fairway narrows short of this hazard making holding the short grass a difficult proposition.


The fun continues on #3, a short par 4.  The green is beyond the sandy area between the trees.  One thing I disliked on this otherwise great hole are the trees left.  All they do is discourage guys going for this green.  I reckon if the trees were taken out more folks would have a go and perhaps end up in serious trouble anywhere left of the green.


After a conservative layup the player faces a very tricky approach to a sharply raised green which is very narrow from this angle.  Interestingly, I really like the tree short of the green.  From the tee, it divides the shot.  Left layup is the more aggressive line, but one then has the length of the green to work with.  Right layup is easier from the tee, but the the player is effectively short-sided.  Superb little hole.


The 4th looks innocent enough, but like the 2nd, there is a cross hazard which creates a choice of go for it or layup.  Many of the holes offer oodles of room around the greens on what from the tee often seems a very enclosed course despite the long range views.  Visually, TOC is very appealing.


The 5th is the first of a very good set of short holes which really lift the quality of TOC.  Like Tobacco Road all the sand on the course is treated as waste areas. Despite the required carry, the nose rising from the waste area just right of the flag gives the hole its real interest.


Unfortunately, like a handful of the par 4s, the 6th didn't do much for me.  Apart from a few stand out two shotters, the par 4s were only mildly interesting.  The par 5 7th wasn't much to my liking either.  However, I thought the other par 5s, and this is very unusual for me, were very, very good. #8 is fine par 3 with a green which will feed to a back right hole location


We had one excellent short par 4 with the 3rd and the 9th is a superb long par 4.  One wants to keep the tee shot inside the funky looking volcano bunker.  This hole is very deceptive from the tee because the fat of the fairway seems to point out right, but there is ample space down the left.




A look at the approach from right of the volcano bunker....strangely this is rough.


The green is one of the trickier ones on the course.  It runs away from the fairway and there are shoulders all over the place which kick balls astray.


Now we have a weird situation whereby similar from the practice ground to the 1st, a cart takes you to the 10th tee.  I didn't like these interruptions in the least and wondered why the heck with so much land Dye couldn't find a way to start and finish by the house - especially since the 1st isn't anything special.  The back 9 was generally more sandy and some holes reminded me a load of Praia Del Rey in Portugal.  #10 didn't really thrill me though it is not a bad hole at all.  I was a bit deceived that there wasn't a kick in off the right.  To be fair, the hole is short enough that a kick in isn't really warranted, but I have become so used to this sort of thing playing older courses in the UK that its almost instinct for me to play away from the flag if I am unsure of what the consequences of failure are if aiming at the flag. The 11th is a lovely par 5 which sort of double doglegs or plays straight - depending on how far one hits it and how aggressive one is.  Notice how much room there is left, but the further left one goes the more difficult it is to go for the green.


Not knowing the course, I tried to stick close to the waste area on the left for the second and went a bit too far.  I was guessing there was some crap out right that couldn't be seen - I never went over to check it out as I was busy looking for my ball!


Once closer, more is revealed. 




This is the sort of situation one can expect if erring left.


The 12th was yet another inexplicably average hole.  I have been a bit hard on the two shotters, but the 13th is a corker.  One wants to keep as far right as you can even though there is ample space out left.


As is the case with many great holes, one can play safe, but then the next is made that much more difficult.  The 13th green bleeds from the high left dune toward the water making approaches from the safe left side of the fairway very difficult.   


We now turn around and head for the house from #14 on.  This is a great par 3 with a green which feeds back toward a neat chipping hollow to the rear.  I say chipping area, but one can putt up the slope.  One thing to be careful of is the vastly differing speeds between the fairway and green. 


Once again, I think Dye failed to really grab my attention with a par 4.  Like many of the others, #15 isn't a bad hole, but it feels like filler.  I found it strange that the best angle of approach was from the right rough.  I say strange, but the far right is exactly where this hole should have been designed around.  It seems to me that this hole was the perfect opportunity to bring the beach into play.  Turn the green at a bit more of an angle thereby making the right side close to the beach the ideal driving zone.  Perhaps there were environmental reasons which mitigated  against this approach, but I find it a dog gone shame that a course can have 18 sea views yet never bring the beach into play.     

The remainder of the run home is an odd mix of penal and strategic shots, but in total I think these three holes are very good.  It all starts with this spectacular view from the 16th tee.


Perhaps the best par 5 on the course, #16 is a bit unusual.  We played a forward tee to make this hole reachable.  As on a few holes previously, it was best to hug the inside of the dogleg if one has any notion of going for this green in two.   


After a pulled drive one can see the predicament I was left with in trying for this green in two.  Its much better to be on the right side where shaping the ball is not a requirement.


I was also deceived by the small size of the green.  From the neck in the fairway I thought the green extended way down beyond the front of the left waste area. To make matters worse, going right/long is a long gone daddy.  This photo shows how difficult it is from the left waste.  That sand is hard packed and a bit wet.  I am guessing its a 12 foot rise to get over what is effectively a wall.  I think Brent (our man in South Carolina) Hutto, Remy and myself all felt the pain of this waste area.


I was told that if TOC had a signature hole the 17th is it.  Curiously I had no memories of this hole nor of any other on the course before my visit.  In any case, I really liked this hole because one could bail left rather than taking on a longer carry to the green.


Remy and I were casually walking down the path when Brent and the caddies gave us a sudden sharp warning.  We weren't paying attention and I nearly jumped out of my skin in an effort to give this thing some space!  Like I said before, there should be laws about this sort of thing.


A look at the green from the 18th tee.  Who the heck places a rubbish bin there?  The boys in the high office better start paying more attention if they want to keep charging $375 a game.  Everything should be perfect with no excuses ever - period. 


The stirring finish continued on the last.  Once again, it is best to cling to the inside of the dogleg because there is trouble left of the green for those that play safe.  I can't recall the last time when I encountered so many doglegs where the play inside was so beneficial.


The approach from the wrong side of the fairway.


A look at the house.


All in all, despite the crazy green fee, I was glad I had a go. The course was definitely better than I expected, but I am not convinced it is one of the top courses in the country. I think the par 4s need to be better and more varied to earn a place near courses like Merion.  That said, the 3s and 5s are certainly very good to great with the 7th as the only exception.  Kiawah is a tough course to rate.  If I was looking at rating on the Doak Scale I think 8 is about right.  Despite the heavy price tag, Kiawah is undeniably a great course so lovers of architecture should play it once. 2*  2009

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 11:07:25 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 06:25:51 AM »
I have played it three times and each time I've faced 30-40 mph winds coming from the SE?  Holes 1-4 weren't bad (downwind)... 5 was OK (crosswind)... 6-13 were extremely difficult (you can imagine)... 14-18 were fine (back downwind).  The width of the fairways is a necessity to make the course playable for high handicappers.

How was the wind when you played?

Brent Hutto

Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 06:46:14 AM »
We had the prevailing SW wind (actually, closer to W) at a good 15mph when we arrived that morning but it sort of steadily ramped down over the course of the day. On most holes it seemed to be about a one-club breeze with the odd gust higher.

There had been terrific winds over the few days prior which had the greens quite dried out and dusted with sand from the waste areas. Since so many of the green are slightly elevated and they were firm and reasonably fast the even the moderate wind on our day did affect putts quite often.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 07:04:29 AM »
Sean,
  Thanks for the pics. TOC one one of my more enjoyable rounds and worth the drive up from Hilton Head.
  This is For Mike Vegis, if he sees this thread,
  Mike, it appears that some of the faces of the bunkers and waste areas have native plantings in them, where as when i played there, the face were just splashed sand. Is that something the the PGA requested or fo another reason?

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 07:16:10 AM »
I have played it three times and each time I've faced 30-40 mph winds coming from the SE?  Holes 1-4 weren't bad (downwind)... 5 was OK (crosswind)... 6-13 were extremely difficult (you can imagine)... 14-18 were fine (back downwind).  The width of the fairways is a necessity to make the course playable for high handicappers.

How was the wind when you played?

Roger

I agree with Brent - maybe a 12-15 mph wind slowing to 10-12 later in the day.  Balls were oscillating on the greens and I can imagine 25 mph wind being very problematic for putting.  I absolutely agree that wide fairways are necessary on the site.  Its something that a great many links in the UK could benefit from! 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Anthony Gray

Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2009, 08:05:52 AM »


  I love having to cross the hazard twice on the 2nd hole. The green on the third hole is one of my most favorites in golf. I do not like some of the angles on the course of the tee and on the par fives.

  Anthony

 

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2009, 08:06:43 AM »
Sean-

I can't see your pictures here at work for some reason, but I enjoyed your commentary. The last two times I played TOC it was on back to back days right after new years day a year and a half ago. When I went in January, the weather was about 40-50* and pretty windy, but the course was almost empty both days and I was able to walk it in about 3.5 hours each time.

I hadn't played for a few months prior to my trip and needless to say, the Ocean Course is not the best course to play as a warm up round for a particular trip, and the first time around I think I shot about 130. After a trip to a neighboring club to get in a second 18 of the day and to work on my swing a little bit, I returned the next morning and played much better, aided by the practice and calm conditions.

On the whole I very much enjoy TOC, esp. the par-3's. The 5th is a really neat green that makes the hole play in a range of three clubs distance depending on the pin location. The 8th is a really cool postage stamp-like green that is just fun to play. The 14th is one of my favorite par-3's anywhere. However I wasn't crazy about the 17th, I felt the hole didn't fit the feel of the course well...or maybe with such a low margin of error it isn't the best hole to be coming into with my slinger hook.

Kiawah, and Charleston in general, is really a fantastic place to visit for golf or just to hang out. You can't beat golf in the morning and the beach in the afternoon followed by a late nine before dinner.

Thanks for the great photo tours of both TOC and Yeamans.
H.P.S.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2009, 08:57:15 AM »
Sean:

Did you notice that your friend on #17 was smiling - I never knew that you resemble Capt. Hook.

I think that the par 4s aren't quite as interesting as you might have expected because of the wind and the severe penalties for missing the fairway, and even being on the wrong side of the fairway.

To me, #14 is a far more interesting par 3 than #17.

Cheers, Jerry

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2009, 09:54:31 AM »
OK, here's the dope on why there's the expansive area between the front and back nines.
When Dye was building the course, construction had to fall within what is termed the "critical line." Dye said the critical line came right along the ocean, near the original 18th green, doglegged back to the area of the old clubhouse location and then jutted back out to the dunes.

Dye said that the reason for the dogleg was that when the area was being surveyed for the critical line that the surveyor had followed the dunes, but when he walked over to his truck for his lunch break, he dropped a stake. So, on the maps, the critical line jogged inward.

"I explained to the owners at the time, Joe Walser and Ernie Vossler, that you can't tie the two nines together," Dye said. "Joe said, 'Pete, we've got to have the Ryder Cup so hurry and do what you can.'"

Dye continued working, but he also lobbied then Gov. Carroll Campbell to help  in gettign the critical line moved out.

That didn't help in tying th etwo nines together, but it did all the owners to build the practice range and the old (which has since been removed) and new clubhouses in their present locations.

As far as the grassing in the bunkers, we had some plugging problems in the Senior PGA (which cost Eduardo Romaro the tournament on 14) so Pete is grassing in the faces of many of the transition areas.  I don't know...  I point would be, "then don't hit your ball there -- that's why they're called 'hazards.'"

BTW, as far as the par-4s are concerned, this is what Nick Price said that when he was here for the Senior PGA -- "The back nine the 15th hole is undoubtedly my favorite hole on this golf course.  It looks like it's been there for 200 years."  I guess to each his own...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE New
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2009, 10:12:35 AM »
Sean:

Did you notice that your friend on #17 was smiling - I never knew that you resemble Capt. Hook.

I think that the par 4s aren't quite as interesting as you might have expected because of the wind and the severe penalties for missing the fairway, and even being on the wrong side of the fairway.

To me, #14 is a far more interesting par 3 than #17.

Cheers, Jerry

I spose I was bit surprised that the course never hit directly toward or away from the sea.  I think this would have gone a long way to creating a b it more variety with the 4s.  

Somebody emailed and asked what I would give TOC on the Doak Scale.  Since the DS doesn't count cost as a factor, I think a 8ish from me is about right.  

Mike

I was sorry to miss you, but I guess you had BETTER things to do!

Ciao  
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 12:48:17 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2009, 10:25:13 AM »
Mike:

In watching the Masters and some of those bunkers, I was thinking that balls might plug in the face and what would happen.  If I remember correctly one of the seniors had the problem at #14 at the TOC.  Somehow I cannot imagine that ANGC would consider grassing the bunkers. Isn't maintenance a problem with those bunkers - how do you keep the sand up there when the wind blows or they get packed down after a rainstorm?

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2009, 10:39:20 AM »
Quote
I also found it strange that the best abgle of approach was from the right rough. 

I was sort of expecting monstrous creations with all sorts of weird shit going on, but this was not the case.

Sean, I got a kick out of some of the things you said.

For some reason, the top quote made me laugh out loud.

In any case, great review, thank you.

Cheers,
Jordan

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2009, 10:40:57 AM »
Thanks for the nice pictures.  Holes #2-4 have one of the most picturesque routings with the marshes on the left and knowing that the ocean is to the right.  When the wind is down, it's so quiet out there on the first few holes that it almost makes your ears ring.  You don't hear it much, but those were my favorite holes on the course when I played in December.  :)

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2009, 11:27:54 AM »
Mike:

In watching the Masters and some of those bunkers, I was thinking that balls might plug in the face and what would happen.  If I remember correctly one of the seniors had the problem at #14 at the TOC.  Somehow I cannot imagine that ANGC would consider grassing the bunkers. Isn't maintenance a problem with those bunkers - how do you keep the sand up there when the wind blows or they get packed down after a rainstorm?

How do we keep the sand up there with all the wind and rain?  By employing a good portion of Central America (all here legally, BTW -- we actually check such things).  Grassing the bunker faces is a Pete Dye decision in consultation with the PGA.

And that was the tournament leader, Eduardo Romero, who went for a sucker pin on the back left of the green on No. 14 and plugged.  He took an unplayable, pitched on and two putted for a double.  Denis Watson hit the middle of the green and drained his birdie putt.  Three shot swing that he never gave up...
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 11:30:38 AM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2009, 11:33:24 AM »
Quote

Mike

I was sorry to miss you, but I guess you had BETTER things to do!

Ciao 

Sorry.  The Ocean Course only came in 25th in Golf Digest's top 100.  I was on the No. 1 course collecting many, many souvenir beer cups sitting in the stands at 16... ::)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 12:37:14 PM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2009, 11:45:22 AM »


Mike

I was sorry to miss you, but I guess you had BETTER things to do!

Ciao 
[/quote]

Sorry.  The Ocean Course only came in 25th in Golf Digest's top 100.  I was on the No. 1 course collecting many, many souvenir beer cups sitting in the stands at 16... ::)
[/quote]

I know you were otherwise engaged, but I can't say I felt for ya - beer cups n all.  It wasn't until I perused the map on the way back to NC that I realized Augusta was that close to Kiawah.

Jonathon

Yes, #s 2 & 3 are a wonderful pair of holes and the green for #4 is cool.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

tlavin

Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2009, 11:56:11 AM »
Much to my dismay, I haven't played this course yet.  Tom Meeks, late of the USGA, told me that it is the most difficult course in America.  He would know...

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2009, 12:15:32 PM »
Excellent photos - thanks for posting those.

I am curious about (of all things) your comment on the trash can next to 17 green. I'm not sure, but doesn't it sit between 17 green and 18 tee? You seem overly critical of it, yet I wonder where else one would put it. Or would not having one be better? Seems to me the lesser of two evils is putting one there rather than the customers have fewer options for properly disposing of trash.

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2009, 12:36:19 PM »


Mike

I was sorry to miss you, but I guess you had BETTER things to do!

Ciao 

A quick 3 hours, up 26 to Columbia and over on 20 to Washington Street...  It's a yearly trip...

For those who want to see more of the course without leaving their computer, go to www.wgt.com.  It's a free on-line photo-realistic video game where The Ocean Course is the first full 18 holes you can play.  Next up, Bethpage Black.  They're also in the process of shooting Pinehurst #2.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 12:39:57 PM by Mike Vegis @ Kiawah »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2009, 12:42:09 PM »
Excellent photos - thanks for posting those.

I am curious about (of all things) your comment on the trash can next to 17 green. I'm not sure, but doesn't it sit between 17 green and 18 tee? You seem overly critical of it, yet I wonder where else one would put it. Or would not having one be better? Seems to me the lesser of two evils is putting one there rather than the customers have fewer options for properly disposing of trash.

John

Of course the rubbish bin isn't a big deal.  That said, both Remy and I wondered what it was when we stood on the tee so it certainly detracted our eye from the set piece - which is a shame and completely unnecessary.  There are plenty of places to dump garbage - it doesn't need to be in full view from the tee of a lovely hole.  Have I mentioned that I pay attention to details - especially when I am paying top whack?  

Ciao  

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2009, 12:47:50 PM »
Are you sure it's a rubbish bin?  Looks more like a valve box to control water in and out of that pond in front of 17 green.

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2009, 01:06:30 PM »
Much to my dismay, I haven't played this course yet.  Tom Meeks, late of the USGA, told me that it is the most difficult course in America.  He would know...

I've played Butler National a few times and statistically speaking for stroke average, butler is the hardest course in pga tour history. (It was as of a few years ago, and was harder than every major held during the period that butler held the western open...... Please correct me if im wrong, but I don't think I am  ;D)

HOWEVER.... The Ocean Course is consistently the hardest course i have ever played.  EVER.  The wind is out of control and with the new seaside paspalum on the greens, it's almost impossible to keep a putt on line when it's really windy.  This past december, the greens seemed as fast as Oakmont or Canton Brookside (btw- northeast ohio's best hidden gem hands down!!!!)  Furthermore,  the crazy part is that while the fairways are very generous and fair, it takes extreme precision with the irons to flight each shot properly to get it to your desired location.....once again, wind, wind, wind.

Example - I'm a scratch handicap and my last round from the 6800 yard tees, I shot 89.  I hit every fairway on the front and shot 46!  It was amazing because I flushed every shot through the first 4 holes and was +5.

I've always looked at it this way..........KIAWAH = CRAZY WIND = MURDER  :o !  

(everyone already knows this though, right? haha)



Brad Fleischer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2009, 02:34:34 PM »
Sean,

You crack me up. I make sure I read all your posts as I laugh at least once. I also read them waiting for your star scale rating so we can agree to disagree lol. I am still waiting for a line other than "it's not worth a speacial trip " lol. When that happens i'm on the first plane outa here . I agree with you on the par fives and threes, thought they were really good. I don't however think the fours are that bad. With that said I hear you on the price. If your going to charge that much it better be close to as good as it gets. I don't think any course is worth that much, ok maybe a handful but certainly not  toc. So we agree there.

Brad

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2009, 03:04:18 PM »
Thanks Sean.

Here are my reactions from three rounds last fall.  I had relatively low expectations and therefore was really blown away by the quality of the course. 




http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36477.0.html


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: THE OCEAN COURSE New
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2009, 03:21:42 PM »
Sean,

You crack me up. I make sure I read all your posts as I laugh at least once. I also read them waiting for your star scale rating so we can agree to disagree lol. I am still waiting for a line other than "it's not worth a speacial trip " lol. When that happens i'm on the first plane outa here . I agree with you on the par fives and threes, thought they were really good. I don't however think the fours are that bad. With that said I hear you on the price. If your going to charge that much it better be close to as good as it gets. I don't think any course is worth that much, ok maybe a handful but certainly not  toc. So we agree there.

Brad

Brad

Can I expect to see you on the tee tomorrow?  Tee Hee.  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39199.0.html  

I don't think the 4s are bad at all.  In fact, there isn't  bad one in the bunch.  However, I count 4 really good ones out of 10.  I think of the 4s as the meat and spuds of a course so this was a let down for a course the stature of TOC.

Roger

I reckon the box could be some sort of control box - I didn't peak inside.  Again, why place it there?

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 12:45:03 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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