[Mike Hendren]

I understand Augusta National Golf Club is actually PLANTING gorse!

Bogey

[Anthony Gray]

Tradition and nothing else. 

  Gorse just seems so royal and ancient.

[Jason McNamara]

I understand Augusta National Golf Club is actually PLANTING gorse!

Will they have to change the name of one of the holes?

Jason

[Jim_Kennedy]

Trees can have a negative effect on your ball whether it's on the ground or in the air, and depending on how tall the tree is that could be 100' of vertical space.

How much vertical impact does gorse have?

[Charlie Goerges]

Trees can have a negative effect on your ball whether it's on the ground or in the air, and depending on how tall the tree is that could be 100' of vertical space.

As one of the few resident tree huggers on the site, I have to ask, what's wrong with something having an effect on your ball in the air? Does wind not have an effect on your ball in the air? In a sense, trees can sometimes substitute for the wind on non-windy sites.

How much vertical impact does gorse have?

Very little, but if you are within 1 foot of the trunk of a tree you very well might have a decent, unencumbered shot. If you are within 1 foot of the (trunk? stem? body? I don't know what it's called on gorse) you are f**ked.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Conwy has taken out huge quantities of gorse. It still makes the 17th a terrifying hole if you cannot guarantee to hit the ball dead straight. However, visiting parties were taking 5 or 6 hours a round. Hackers like me would be deep in the gorse 150 yards off the tee. There were stupidities such as the short 15th which had deep gorse immediately behind the green. If you overshot and could find your ball, where could you drop out? You had to go about 150 yards back up the 14th to drop out in the right rough keeping the point of entry between you and the hole, which you could no longer see....

In the right place it's good and handsome, but it can be ridiculously penal - out of proportion to other growths - in other places. Common sense is all that is needed.

[Mike Wagner]

Is there anything better than gorse to represent the simultaneous beauty and torture one experiences every round?

[Brian_Ewen]

Ally

I fully agree that gorse needs to be managed, but they seem to be going well beyond this at Dornoch where a significant part of the course looks like a new course just ready for hydroseeding.  While much of this gorse was largely out of play, it was never out of mind, and it added to the natural beauty of the links.  It is generally agreed by the better players that the course has been dumbed down over the past 10-15 years, catering to the casual visitors rather than the members, at least IMHO.  I hope I am wrong.

Rich

Rich , do you think this is this management of whins , or management of rabbits ?

[Norbert P]

The 17th at Pacific Dunes . . .

 

  Gorse is a huge responsibility and liabilty but it has quite a brutal charm to it. But I don't want to hug the stuff.  It reseeds "explosively" and burns disastrously - town of Bandon burned down twice because of it.  And it's hard to work with. Hemopheliacs need not apply for this job.

It is highly respected by old time writers - and I gotta like having it become a real entity.

  In the end, hecky darn, golfers need some toughening up. Let's plant some more.


  Ulex europaeus

[Michael Dugger]

I think "we" have a problem with a lack of width.

If trees encroach we say chop them down!

Gorse is no different, a sliver of fairway with gorse lining both sides would suck

[Tom_Doak]

Gorse is a traditional, and some would say a spiritual connection to the links courses of Scotland.  No question that Michael Murphy is up here filming his movie in Bandon partly because of all the gorse in full display.  (I hope that "Golf In The Kingdom" was supposed to have taken place in May, because it's obviously spring here right now.)

You could just as easily ask why bunkers get a pass ... they get a pass because they have been part of golf from the beginning.

Note that ponds do not get a pass, but streams and oceanfront do.

[Ian Andrew]

Judging by what's underneath the gorse, it eats Mars bars and drink Beer. Just cut off the food supply.

To echo what Tom said, anything that was on the site "before golf" will always get a free pass. While the gorse is invasive, it was usually there first.

[ed_getka]

Ally

I fully agree that gorse needs to be managed, but they seem to be going well beyond this at Dornoch where a significant part of the course looks like a new course just ready for hydroseeding.  While much of this gorse was largely out of play, it was never out of mind, and it added to the natural beauty of the links.  It is generally agreed by the better players that the course has been dumbed down over the past 10-15 years, catering to the casual visitors rather than the members, at least IMHO.  I hope I am wrong.

Rich

It is too bad they are taking out the gorse so aggressively. I was thinking it was very appropriate when I was there 5 or 6 years ago. A really bad shot could get in it, but it certainly didn't induce claustrophobia. I would say the only exception was #18, but by that point in the round I figure you should have worked out your swing.

[JSPayne]

I think gorse gets the pass because it is one of the natural plants that occur on linksland, moorland, heathland. It was there from the start, maybe if daffodills or pansies were natural to the old course we would think they were ok.

On the heels of this statement......

Think of it this way, as gorse seems to be accepted as being part of the natural environment and even probably having been there before the golf course, therefore the course was built INTO the gorse......

Similarly you don't hear too often golfers asking to chop down a forest of trees when it was natural, there to begin with and the course was built into the forest. In both cases, the surrounding vegetation is accepted as part of what defines the kind of course, boundary edges are maintained, but no one goes around asking "Why can't they just clear all these damn trees out of here so I can find my ball?" It'd be like golfers making a demend to clear all the interior trees of Poppy Hills in Pebble Beach.

Most of the complaints and removal of bunkers, OB boundaries and trees result from mismanagement, misplanting, under-thought after-the-fact placement of such obstacles which severly hinder either the turf quality, playability or original architectural intentions of the course.

[jeffwarne]

To echo what Tom said, anything that was on the site "before golf" will always get a free pass.

except for trees of course

[Niall C]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't one of the greatest moments in the evolution of the Old Course when Allan Robertson cleared away a lot of the gorse to open up the course ?

Niall

[Ian Andrew]

To echo what Tom said, anything that was on the site "before golf" will always get a free pass.

except for trees of course

Jeff,

You made me smile - excellent come back. 

[Greg Murphy]

Has anyone ever ADDED gorse to a course, like trees have so often been added, e.g., Talking Stick South?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Has anyone ever ADDED gorse to a course, like trees have so often been added, e.g., Talking Stick South?

We have planted around 1000 plants per year over the last 5 years. I buy from Alba trees in scotland as a plug, costs around 30p each, within about 4-5 years it is quite a plant. At the moment in bloom they look lovely. More recently I have added Broom too. I have not found it too invasive.

[Brian_Ewen]

You can always drink the stuff 

Gorse Wine
12 cups of gorse flowers
7 pints of water
2 pounds sugar
1 1/2 cups seedless white raisins
2 oranges
2 lemons (or 1/4 oz. citric acid)
1/8 teaspoon grape tannin
1 teaspoon yeast nutrient
1 pkg Lalvin EC-1118 yeast

Put the flowers into primary immediately.

Boil half the water, half the sugar and the chopped raisins together for 1 to 2 minutes, then pour over flowers.

Thinly peel the rind from the oranges and the lemons and add rind (no pith) to primary.

Squeeze out the juice and add that too, but not the pulp.

Add the tannin and stir thoroughly.

Add cold water to bring total to 1 gallon.

When water cools to 90 degrees F, or less, add the activated yeast and yeast nutrient, stir well and cover.

Ferment 3 days, stirring twice daily, then add remaining sugar and stir to dissolve.

Recover primary and continue stirring twice daily until fermentation subsides or s.g. drops below 1.020.

Strain through a sieve or cloth and transfer to a gallon secondary.

Fit airlock and set in warm place.

Rack after 30 days and again when clear, wait a month and rack again.

Stabilize, wait 30 days, and sweeten to 1.004-1.006.

Wait additional 30 days, rack into bottles and age 6 months before tasting it.

[Niall C]

Has anyone ever ADDED gorse to a course, like trees have so often been added, e.g., Talking Stick South?

We have planted around 1000 plants per year over the last 5 years. I buy from Alba trees in scotland as a plug, costs around 30p each, within about 4-5 years it is quite a plant. At the moment in bloom they look lovely. More recently I have added Broom too. I have not found it too invasive.

Adrian,

Whats your course and whats the purpose of the gorse ? Are you planting it in out of play areas or are you putting it in where it might provide a penalty ?

BTW, just played a medal this morning at Gailes and lost a ball in the gorse at the 16th when I was going along quite nicely.

Niall

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I have not read the entire thread but I do agree with your original point.

I have played my share of courses across the pond and some of them are INFESTED with hay-like rough and gorse and often times are WAY TOO NARROW for regular play.

A good example is the Dunluce 18 at Royal Portrush. Pity the player who strays even a yard or off the secondary rough and lands in the primary stuff. From the time I was there it was nothing more than a lateral play BACK to the fairway if you could even find it.

I chuckled when I saw a guy late in the day wading through this stuff with a sickle in hand looking for hapless American players who had deposited their Pro VI's there.

In the case of Dunluce it doesn't need THIS HELPING HAND GIMMICK. It cheapens the architecture because it causes a bowling-alley approach to the golf design.

[Niall C]

Jeff:

I have not read the entire thread but I do agree with your original point.

I have played my share of courses across the pond and some of them are INFESTED with hay-like rough and gorse and often times are WAY TOO NARROW for regular play.

A good example is the Dunluce 18 at Royal Portrush. Pity the player who strays even a yard or off the secondary rough and lands in the primary stuff. From the time I was there it was nothing more than a lateral play BACK to the fairway if you could even find it.

I chuckled when I saw a guy late in the day wading through this stuff with a sickle in hand looking for hapless American players who had deposited their Pro VI's there.

In the case of Dunluce it doesn't need THIS HELPING HAND GIMMICK. It cheapens the architecture because it causes a bowling-alley approach to the golf design.

Matt,

I imagine that the courses you are referring to are members courses ? In which case they get "regular play" all the time. I would be interested to hear what other courses you are referring to, and I bet they most of them were built over 80 years ago on acreages of typically 120 acres when you didn't need all the extra acres to let golfers unleash the latest big headed driver.

I think its just a case of adapting to what you play. If your home course has lots of gorse, you soon learn to be become a better driver or you rein in your shots. I've been playing links golf consistently for over 10 years and a lot of the best amateur golfers I've met don't have much of a gof swing to look at, maybe don't hit a long ball, but they know how to keep out of trouble.

Niall

[Matt_Ward]

Niall:

The issue I have is that there were a few courses on my last visit to the UK and Ireland that were way too narrow -- that the gap between fairway and then the hay-like rough / gorse was encroaching upon the architecture to the point where drives had to be predictably archer-like straight with little in regards to playing angles.

You mention "adaption." That's fine. How bout the facilities realize that people playing such courses need more of a corridor than a single line road to play?

The issue is that width needs to be added to these courses -- alllow people to play recovery shots because hitting SW's laterally back out onto the fairway is the equivalent of hitting the shot into H20 or even OB.

Architecture needs to "tempt" the player at times. It makes no sense to have a wonderful design -- as in the case of Dunluce at Portrush and have hay-like rough / gorse no more than a few paces from where the fairway is. A bit more thought on how to elevate the architecture -- rather than the sheer torture would help these courses really shine even more brightly in my mind.

[Doug Wright]

Niall:

The issue I have is that there were a few courses on my last visit to the UK and Ireland that were way too narrow -- that the gap between fairway and then the hay-like rough / gorse was encroaching upon the architecture to the point where drives had to be predictably archer-like straight with little in regards to playing angles.

You mention "adaption." That's fine. How bout the facilities realize that people playing such courses need more of a corridor than a single line road to play?

The issue is that width needs to be added to these courses -- alllow people to play recovery shots because hitting SW's laterally back out onto the fairway is the equivalent of hitting the shot into H20 or even OB.

Architecture needs to "tempt" the player at times. It makes no sense to have a wonderful design -- as in the case of Dunluce at Portrush and have hay-like rough / gorse no more than a few paces from where the fairway is. A bit more thought on how to elevate the architecture -- rather than the sheer torture would help these courses really shine even more brightly in my mind.

Matt,

When did you last play Portrush Dunluce? I was there late last September and the rough was nothing like you say.

Same with the Portmarnock Old Course, which I had played 10+ years ago and recall having rough that was much more fierce then.

So maybe they have in fact "elevated" the architecture over there.

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