[jeffwarne]

and trees, OB, and water don't.
Some of the best courses in the UK and Ireland are strewn with inpenetrable gorse that's far more penal than water or trees.

Why are we constantly talking about removing trees on courses from which balls aren't lost and there is opportunity for recovery , yet never hear comments about courses that have gorse on one or both sides on many or sometimes most holes?

my guess is many courses didn't have the abundance of gorse they now do when originally laid out.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

trees cause problems with turf conditions and need to be removed. as for playablility they can restrict options on how to play a hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
Two words: match play.

[J_ Crisham]

Jeff,  My guess is that the majority of the tree clearing is being done in the US. A much needed response to decades of grounds committees with overzealous plantings. I'm not sure that more gorse in the UK has been planted but rather allowed to propagate. At Bandon I understand it was a bitch to remove. I wonder if it isn't convenience to some degree. Having hacked my way out of lots of gorse over the years I would prefer being under an oak tree any day!                   Jack

[Bill_McBride]

Those gold blossoms are a whole lot prettier than a line of white stakes or a chain link fence. 

[jeffwarne]

Those gold blossoms are a whole lot prettier than a line of white stakes or a chain link fence. 

Bingo!
We have a winner.


Alan,
As far as trees causing poor turf conditions, there's NO turf growing in a patch of gorse.
 Trees cause playability problems but gorse doesn't?

[Jason Topp]

Tradition and nothing else. 

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Alan,
As far as trees causing poor turf conditions, there's NO turf growing in a patch of gorse.
 Trees cause playability problems but gorse doesn't?

true, but have you ever climbed under a gorse bush to find out i meant that trees effect the surrounding turf from shade, roots drawing water, air movement whereas gorse is at most a few feet high....

[jeffwarne]

true, but have you ever climbed under a gorse bush to find out

I was addressing my tee shot on the 18th at Fortrose and the tee backed up to a tall thick patch of gorse which (unbeknownst to me) was adjacent to another  fairway when I suddenly heard in a thick Scottish accent-

"I can play it allright ,but I'm going to get a prickly arse"

[Carl Johnson]

From a playability standpoint, gorse is water.  Yr're ball goes in ther' an' it's gon'.

[jeffwarne]

From a playability standpoint, gorse is water.  Yr're ball goes in ther' an' it's gon'.

No gorse is not water-it's OB unless you find it (and that's rare)

[Carl Johnson]

From a playability standpoint, gorse is water.  Yr're ball goes in ther' an' it's gon'.

No gorse is not water-it's OB unless you find it (and that's rare)

Sorry, I didn't mean that from a rules standpoint.  If marked as such, it would be OB.  Otherwise, LB (lost ball), which is essentially the same penalty (I think).  As a practical matter, I regard gorse as water because if the ball goes in there, then normally you're not going to get it back.  So, from an architectural standpoint, I think of gorse as water, although absent marking as a hazard, it's not the same.  As a golfer, not an architect, my thinking is faulty, I'm sure.  I'd be interested to learn what the architects think of the gorse "hazard."  Richardson and Fine (or others), any comments?  (P.S., when in bloom it can be beautiful.  When my ball goes in there, it sucks.)

[Mike McGuire]

Gorse is a prolific plant (weed?) that costs money to eliminate. A lot of courses in England - Scotland don't have the budget to eradicate, and even if they did what would they plant in its place?

[Carl Johnson]

Gorse is a prolific plant (weed?) that costs money to eliminate. A lot of courses in England - Scotland don't have the budget to eradicate, and even if they did what would they plant in its place?

For what it's worth, my understanding is that gorse is native to the Mediterranean, but not to the British Isles or such lands as the U.S., Canada, New Zealand and Australia.  Unfortuntunately, it's been transferred to these countries, and others, by apparently well-meaning people, and has become naturalized there.   My assumption has been that the Romans brought it to the British Isles.  That's based on my research and recollection from several years ago.  I've just now gone back and looked it up again.  The sources say it's native to "Western Europe and North Africa," but do not make clear whether the British Isles and mean to be included within "Western Europe" as the term is used in these sources.  In any event, apart from the beauty/hazard debate, gorse is clearly not native to the U.S. and, as in the case of other exotics, it's a shame that we've got it growing here.  It's classified as a noxious weed on the U.S. west coast and import is generally prohibited there.  Unfortunately, the cat is already out of the bag.

[Mike_Cirba]

They're much prettier, you can easily see and hit over them, and on most links courses, they are set back pretty far from the line of play.

Other than that, your point is well taken.

[Doug Siebert]

Mike is exactly right.  Most courses do a pretty good job of keeping it out of the line of play, or it is just clustered here and there so (assuming you know the distances) you can avoid it if you think a bit while playing.  I've teed off with an iron on holes for no other reason than because a drive could reach an outcropping of gorse so I stayed short of it.

Few courses have OB lines drawn that crookedly and haphazardly.  Or water hazards, for that matter, other than creeks/burns.  So its totally different playing a course with OB, treeline or lake down the side versus playing one with gorse down the side, because in most cases the gorse isn't quite so well behaved.  And unlike those other hazards, sometimes a really wild miss goes over the gorse and you end up playable.  Try THAT with OB...

Not saying it can't get out of hand.  I don't know what they look like today, but in 1991 when I played the Troon municipal courses they were overrun by the stuff.  I found a couple of them more difficult than the championship course for that very reason.  But if its as difficult to kill as I've heard, it makes sense that the munis would have a lot more of it.  From what I understand you can't cut it down or even burn it out unless you follow it up by digging out the roots, and the only poisons that will work also kill anything else growing in that spot - so I guess you end up with a bunker in that spot either way!

Maybe Hell Bunker was the aftermath of the eradication of a really huge gorse bush

[Rich Goodale]

I'm just back from a weekend in Dornoch and they have decided on a scorched earth policy in regards to the internal gorse.  What used to be seas of yellow shining between the green of the land and the blue of the sea are now grey wastelands, waiting to be seeded, but with what?  Fescue is a possibility, but right now turnips would be more fitting with the agricultural look of the place.

Jeff, you are right that effectively patches of gorse are just vertical containment ponds, but without them, Scottish golf loses more than just a little bit of its soul.

Rich

[James Bennett]

I recall discussing with the Course Chairman at Boat of Garten (Scottish Highland course) the maintenance challenges.  They have a mixture of silver birch, heather and birch, plus longer grasses to contend with.

As I recall, if the silver birch is not 'managed' then the heather is lost.  And, they prefer heather to silver birch.  And, they are on a small acreage so genuine out of play areas are less common.  Consequently, they also have gorse removal programs.  A lot of Boat of Garten's maintenance was dedicated to maintaing that 'ideal maintenance meld' balance of heather, silver birch and gorse.

I also understand that The Old Course has implemented a 10 year cutting cycle on their gorse, aimed at 'peaking' at the times of Open Championships but also ensuring the ingress of gorse into playing lines is managed.

Perhaps Gorse is Scotland's equivalent of Augusta's azaleas - it looks fantastic behind greens and generally outside the area of play.  Royal Melbourne doesn't have gorse, but it has some high grass areas (out of play generally) where you wouldn't want to go, and you wouldn't want to have your ball found!

James B

[Sean_A]

I am not a big fan of gorse, but there aren't too many courses about with loads of it in play.  Usually, its just sort of scattered here and there.  The two courses I have recently played which use gorse as fairway definition are Conwy (a few holes near the end of the round) and the Kintyre (some holes on the front 9).  There are a few good holes in these stretches (particularly Conwy's 17th), but overall I disapprove.  Its not much different from hitting down a bowling alley.

Ciao

[Alister Matheson]

 Gorse management  is very important and in my experiance is the last thing golfers /councils/comittees want taken out !

The main probs are how quickly it spreads and also after 10-15years it can get long and leggy. At Cruden Bays 12th for example the gorse had taken the rhs fairway bunker completley out of sight from the middle and rhs of the medal tee but there were no complaints about this ,the golfers just teed up tight to the lhs of the tee ?


Golfers seem to be mesmerised by the pretty flowers  in may .
At Cruden Bay there are a lot of areas where it has encroached to much. If a golfer is  15 yards from the fairway in rough and looses his ball he crys for it to be mowed , BUT if he is the same distance away in a gorse bush he just accepts it  why ? Is it because it looks like its been there for ever ?

I have looked over loads of old black and white pics of Cruden Bay and it is amazing how much it has invaded the links over time !

Royal Dornoch 6th Whinny Brae !   The gorse a few winters ago needed stripped and trimmed back as it  was taking over between tee and green,ie  long /leggy + line of sight  ect. Obviously at the time it looks unsightly after being cut but after a year or two regenerates.The gorse is a big feature at Dornoch in May on the big bankings bordering the course and thats where it is mostly kept to by the greenstaff.

 Gorse lines /Borders need to be agreed with councils/comittees then GPS surveys done mapping out agreed lines . Any young gorse crossing border lines then can be sprayed off to stop the gorse marching !

Brora is a great example of the way Gorse used to be self managed on many links as any young soft sprigs of gorse are devoured by the grazing sheep .
 

[Rich Goodale]

Ally

I fully agree that gorse needs to be managed, but they seem to be going well beyond this at Dornoch where a significant part of the course looks like a new course just ready for hydroseeding.  While much of this gorse was largely out of play, it was never out of mind, and it added to the natural beauty of the links.  It is generally agreed by the better players that the course has been dumbed down over the past 10-15 years, catering to the casual visitors rather than the members, at least IMHO.  I hope I am wrong.

Rich

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think gorse gets the pass because it is one of the natural plants that occur on linksland, moorland, heathland. It was there from the start, maybe if daffodills or pansies were natural to the old course we would think they were ok.

[Ross Tuddenham]

As mentioned a tree could block an interesting angle and also have greater impact on the surrounding vegetation.  But does it not come down to what is more appropriate for the surrounding natural environment.  Gorse grows naturally and so to keep it makes sense.  It would not make sense to construct a large pond in the middle of the Old course or Bandon dunes.

So this is probably why gorse gets an easier ride because it has always been there but trees and water features more often than not just stick out and ruin the picturesque qualities of a hole.

[Niall C]

Gorse is an incredibly invasive plant that will take over given a chance. Silloth undertook a programme of removing it with the assistance of English Nature (Silloth is designated as a Site of Special Scientific Interest) who gave the club an eight thousand pound grant to undertake the work. A lot of the members were up in arms about it, including many older members who thought they shouldn't be doing anything to spoil the course.

In the end the committe convinced them it was the right thing to do by showing them an aerial photograph of the course of about 50 years ago which showed the course only had a fraction of the gorse it has now.

Where the gorse was ripped out marram grass or heather was planted in its place. To answer Jeff's question as to why it is tolerated, I would say that many clubs mistakenly believe that its always been there and therefore should be retained. I suspect that over time English Nature and its Scottish equivalent will manage to convince clubs that it should be more actively managed or eradicated.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

Just for the record, I happen to like the look of gorse ---especially when used sparingly and/or strategically.
As many posters have documented ,it clearly can become a management problem as it seems to grow quite rapidly and hardily.

My initial comments were geared towards the tree haters who are convinced no tree is a good tree.
I disagree strongly and feel any hazard, whether it be water, gorse, trees ,tall grass, or OB is fine as long as it is in moderation and preferably not often on both sides so there is some strategy/angle protection.

and for those who mention gorse is natural, so are trees on many courses.
(although many committees have done their share of damage on planting)

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