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RJ_Daley

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Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2009, 02:46:54 PM »
OK David, would you go with decidedly flat, down the deceptively imperceptable grade that is the entire course property.  ;) :D
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Mike Wagner

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Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2009, 02:58:53 PM »
#5 - Bandon Dunes.

One of the greatest holes I've ever seen.  Option galore!  Drive it left for a shorter/easier angle, bail right and still have a play.  Lay up/go for it.  One of the most daunting holes on the planet into the wind from the tip.  I've also played it downwind and had 100 yards in - sooooo much character - puts on a different face every time with quality of shots/wind/angles...love it!

David Kelly

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Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2009, 03:12:22 PM »
OK David, would you go with decidedly flat, down the deceptively imperceptable grade that is the entire course property.  ;) :D

I would say that every hole there is going downhill in a southernly direction.

The reason I wouldn't call it a flat hole is that your approach shot MUST take into consideration the fact that the hole is going downhill.  That is not the case on most of the other holes mentioned in this thread that I have played.  In fact on many pin positions on #12 I like to hit a full driver and drive past pin high so that I can have a wedge approach going back up toward the hole.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Bill_McBride

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Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2009, 03:33:06 PM »
Rustic Canyon #12 may look flat but it is decidely downhill.

The famous "canyon effect" that will be experienced by Kings Putter participants on Sunday!  8)

Jason Topp

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Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2009, 03:33:39 PM »

4 at Woodlands


henrye

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2009, 04:17:52 PM »
Ian.  If I were to choose one really flat course that I thought was very good (not including links courses) it would be Walton Heath.  There is some movement, but it's about as flat as anything found outside of Florida.  The course has some wonderful greens, but I think it's strength lies in it's bunkers and their strategic placement.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2009, 06:16:31 PM »
Sean Arble,

The land in those photos doesn't look like it's flat to me.

But, then again, my eyesight isn't what it used to be.

David_Elvins

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Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2009, 06:28:09 PM »

4 at Woodlands


Agree on this one.  Absolutely fantastic.

A few more photos





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Ian Andrew

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2009, 06:55:27 PM »
Pat,

Does Chicago have the greatest collection of flat holes – in your opinion do the templates help overcome a flat site? Are they one of the answers to this question.

Patrick,

The 16th was a real good choice and one that I didn’t think of. The green is up – is it cut into the dune behind – or does it sit below?

Sean,

That reminded me a bit of a hole I really liked at Montrose. The central ridge was something that Mike and I talked about on the 7th hole at Riviera – we were discussing how to handle a flat site at the time. I always wondered if we could take a feature like that and introduce it to the interior of a fairway on a flatter property. My thought was you could add terrain and still tie in perfectly to the surrounds. Like an interior contour on a green, but on a much broader scale.

Dick,

Nice call on Essex! Ross added swales to remove water and to create the illusion of a rolling piece of property – add in greens that are slightly raised and you have a course that exceeds its site. Excellent example!

Jim,

Great point on scale Jim, with flat sites you tend to get overwhelmed if there isn’t trees or another outside feature to stop the entire setting from being overpowering. The one way to overcome this is with larger features, like Mike Strantz used at MPCC. Scale fills space and creates enough visual stimulation to overcome what would otherwise be a flat site. It also provides enough mass so that a flat view will still pick out the interior of a bunker or the mass of a green.

RJ,

Like the example. A great green can carry a hole single-handedly. There’s an example of the Valley of Sin brought into the green surface and therefore having a massive impact on play. I think the 5th at Augusta has much of the same ideas – or at least it does now.

HenryE

I loved Walton Heath. I still think its proof that the joy of “playing” the game matters more than what you see. I loved the middle holes that were over decidedly average terrain. I’ve never felt more compelled to trying running approaches than there.



GBoring

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2009, 08:31:23 PM »
#5 Yeamans Hall.  Tremendous Bunkering and mounding frames the hole.

JR Potts

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Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2009, 08:52:29 PM »
The first three holes at Pinehurst #2 are flat...and wonderful holes.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2009, 10:04:04 PM »
It always puzzles me why many people think that it is hard to design a good course on a generally flat site. It has been done many times. I think there are far more examples of mediocre  courses built on sites with too much elevation change.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2009, 10:29:38 PM »
Ian -

I think it all comes down to angles. On a flat site, the strategic use of angles (or should that be "the use of strategic angles") may not be enough to create a "brilliant hole" - since you'll only get golf in two dimensions instead of the three you get with changes in elevation. But I think angles can produce a very good golf hole, and a very good hole is good enough for me.

Peter

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2009, 10:35:48 PM »
Ian,

While the green is elevated slightly above the fairway, it's below the dune.

The 17th tee sits up on the dune, as does the 18th tee.

# 10 is also one of my favorite holes, especially when the hole is cut on the left side of the green and the wind is out of the north or east.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2009, 03:28:24 AM »
Sean Arble,

The land in those photos doesn't look like it's flat to me.

But, then again, my eyesight isn't what it used to be.

Patrick

I would say the ridge is a gentle 3 foot rise down the fairway and maybe a bit less through the green.  Its not enough movement to effectively create an awkward stance which has always been my criteria for flat. 

GBoring

I wouldn't describe Yeamans as flat.  It has several holes and greens which are downright rambunctious. 

Speaking of Peter's idea of angles, the 1st at New Zealand does this very well.  The further right one heads off the tee the more he must contend with the greenside bunkering.


Not only does the bunkering come into play, but the hole also plays longer from this angle.


New Zealand is full of cool flat holes in which the bunkering and shaping of fairways sets the agenda.  Now for a few GREAT par 3 examples.

#7


#16: The flatness in conjunction with the natural grasses is used to obscure the green and its surrounding hazards.  I love this sort of design which finds ways create interest on seemingly mundane land.


A closer look.


Yet another.


Of course, on can always get more extreme with fairway shaping by creating severe doglegs which may require laying up to the correct spot on the turn.  In the case of New Zealand's 17th it pays to keep it close to the tree line to avoid an awkward angle over a bunker and to a green which gently tilts away from the right of the fairway.  Approach to #17.


From here one can see how the target narrows and pushes left from a left approach. 


Ian, if you are looking to see how fairway shaping, bunkering and grass can make a nearly dead flat site interesting you must visit New Zealand.  Its a very cunning course that plays so much more difficult than it should seem to.  I admit that the course isn't really one of the very top London courses, but that is through no fault of the design.

Ciao


Ciao
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 03:54:25 AM by Sean Arble »
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Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2009, 05:11:51 AM »
David,Jason.

I think 15 at Woodlands is an even better example than the 4th of a great flat hole.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2009, 05:23:14 AM »
Royal Melbourne West #13 (short par 3) is wonderful use of a patch of land boasting the size and interest of a suburban socser pitch.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mark_F

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2009, 06:09:05 AM »
David,Jason.

I think 15 at Woodlands is an even better example than the 4th of a great flat hole.

Yes, especially since the 4th isn't exactly flat, and the 15th is.

Mark_F

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2009, 06:15:18 AM »
I am surprised no one from Melbourne has mentioned this one.


Ian Andrew

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2009, 08:16:59 AM »
I guess I should define flat.

The green and bunkers can be artificially raised - so can the tees for that matter. In fact a lot of what I'm looking for will have come from the decisions made along these lines.

The fairway is probably on native grade, and while it may have some minor undulations, it is without any prominant features - unless created!

I'm looking to pick up more ideas.

Anthony Gray

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2009, 08:23:46 AM »


  If you want flat, look at Eric Smith's thread of Harbour Towne.

  Anthony


Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2009, 09:40:33 AM »

Is this for a project?

I know of a course.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2009, 10:18:43 AM »
Ian,

Hidden Creek and Friar's Head has some outstanding flat holes.

Mark Arata

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2009, 11:37:50 AM »
well, if par 3's count, how about the 2nd at Kingsley?

Would the 17th at CPC be considered flat? (I didnt actually get to see it during the hail storm...  ;D)

New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

tlavin

Re: The Best Examples of Excellent Flat Holes
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2009, 12:04:13 PM »
#2-#17 at Riviera!