[Ian Andrew]

This thread comes with a tip of the cap to Mark’s great thread

Every architect has to face a situation where there are relatively no natural features. Some architects enjoy the complete artistic freedom to create exactly what they want – often involving great amounts of earthmoving. But to many of us the earthmoving idea does not appeal which brings the question of how can you create compelling golf on a flat site.

I see this as the most difficult of all tasks since no matter how hard you try, you will always be limited by the flatness of the site. So I ask all of you - what creates a brilliant hole over flat terrain? What are the best examples where the architect’s imagination has overcome the situation? Obviously it involves the decision to provide some form of relief to the monotonous grade to create interest where there was none. Please share your examples IN DETAIL and photos if you can supply them.

[Ian Andrew]

The best flat hole I know is the short par four 10th at Riviera.



The 10th hole at Riviera may be the most deceiving hole in all of golf, after all a 311 yard par four should be a push-over … right? The hole is easily reachable from the tee which naturally entices a bold player to play for the green. One of the joys of the Northern Trust Open is watching how many players try to hit the green, and make five. Even though they know missing right is certain peril and most strokes are lost from missing right, they continue to look directly at the green.



What makes the hole special is the green. It slopes sharply away unless you come in from well left. This is a very unique hole, after all how many holes do you know where the longest way to the hole is the most efficient to make a score? But is doesn’t stop with just the green. When you see the hole, you are surprised to find out it is built over a huge flat wide-open expanse. Thomas and Bell have added a series of bunkers that increase the feeling of width. The other thing the bunkers do is perfectly frame the line directly to the green. The funny part is the left edge of the fairway, where the smart lay-up is played, looks like the worst option from the tee. How many holes do you know where the smart play is the least obvious and the riskiest play is the most understandable?



The player is finds himself on the tee just brimming with confidence that they can knock it on, and the architect has gone well out of his way to encourage this. "You may get lucky with your silly choice and make a birdie or a par through an excellent tee shot" (as I did). But as my host Norman said, "but you won’t pull that off two days in a row. Once you make six from the right, you take the route to the left all but a few times a year – if you want to score well.” The hole has many options, needs a great deal of learning to play it well, and allows all level of players a good chance at a score. This is a perfect hole built over pretty much flat land.

[Philippe Binette]

Ian, isn't the 10th at Riviera played from an slightly elevated tee... how much is that elevation if there is one...

I guess once you leave the tee it's flat.

[Shane Wright]

#9 and #1 at Muirfield
#4 Pacific Dunes

[Tyler Kearns]

Ian,

You stole my example.

Ultimately, when given a dead flat site, the first real objective is to determine how to drain the land, because even the most strategically conceived holes are worthless if they are under water. And in creating that drainage network, we can build-up the mown surfaces and create a little contour to make things even more interesting. Therefore, some dirt needs to be moved so that the water has a place to go, and that is an opportunity to improve upon what nature has offered.

Undulating property is ideal, but it does impose constraints on the designer.  Flat sites offer the freedom to lay out holes to the length and width desired. The 10th at Riviera is all about getting the perfect angle into the green, and that requires width. So, when given a flat site and either a limited budget, or expressed desire to limit earthwork, then width is the key to creating compelling golf holes. That is probably true of most excellent golf holes, but even narrow holes over undulating terrain offer more in terms of stance and lie variability.

TK

[Matt Bosela]

Philippe,

Here is a shot from when I played Riviera's 10th hole: the tee is barely elevated, as you said - maybe five yards at most.

[Philippe Binette]

Garden City 15th

440 par 4, 2.5% - 3% left to right till on the green, bunker short left, wide fairway... done deal

[PCCraig]

Chicago is full of them!

How about the 6th at Shoreacres? (Or even the 14th despite being on the edge of a ravine).

Maybe the 11th and 12th at Skokie as well.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Is 18 at Pebble Beach close to being classified as a flat hole?

The first at St. Louis C.C. is close to being flat.  The first tee is very minimally elevated.  Although the fairway is slightly downhill, the grade is so minimal as to have no effect on playing your approach shot.  The fairway then flows directly in to the green with no change in elevation.  In addition the hole is very straight with the fairway being almost rectangle in shape (other than one bunker that juts into the fairway a few yards short of the right side of the green).  From the center of the tee through the middle of the fairway on to the middle of the green would be a very straight line.

Interesting that this course is a CBM/Raynor course, as is Chicago G.C.

[Bill_McBride]

Ian, isn't the 10th at Riviera played from an slightly elevated tee... how much is that elevation if there is one...

I guess once you leave the tee it's flat.

I was there for the recent Northern Trust and spent quite a bit of time by the tee and by the green.  Great short hole with lots of challenge, even for players at that level.

The tee is a bit elevated but not much, it's down below the 9th green which is not as high as the 3rd tee or 18th green.

The green has a nice crown and behind to the left there is a pretty good fall off, maybe five feet over 30 yards.  Balls that go over the green tend to get pretty far behind the green.

Generally yes, it is a relatively flat hole but what elevation change there is, is critical to play of the hole.

[Carl Nichols]

Ian:
For the last few months, I've been playing a lot of golf at a 27-hole facility outside of La Plata, Argentina, which is an extremely flat part of the country.  Most of the holes at the course are mediocre (at best), but there are 2 or 3 that I think are at least fairly interesting, though perhaps not unique.  I only have a few decent pictures, but I should be out there again soon and will post after I take some more.
(NOTE: In general, the greater Buenos Aires area is very flat, and IMHO many of the courses suffer because of the difficulties of building interesting courses/holes on flat land.)

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Ian,

I think there are a good number of good to great flat holes in Florida.

Seminole, Boca Rio, Old Marsh and Pine Tree quickly come to mind.

# 16 at Seminole is one of my favorites as is # 13 at Pine Tree, a devilishly short par 3.  Pine Tree and Boca Rio have an abundance of superior flat holes.

GCGC also has it's share of good to great flat holes, starting with # 1.

Let me know if your travels call for you to be in Florida.

[Adam Clayman]

10th at the Riv immediately jumped to mind, but, that's only because I have not yet been to TOC.

[Bill_McBride]

Talking Stick North is still the poster child for me of flat sites.

Holes like #2 Boundary, with the barbed wire fence straight line OB left, represent great flat land design.  The closer you flirt with the OB, the better your angle into the green.

[Bill_McBride]

10th at the Riv immediately jumped to mind, but, that's only because I have not yet been to TOC.

Adam, TOC is basically on flattish terrain, but it doesn't PLAY flat if you know what I mean.  All the knobs and hillocks and blind shots make it feel like there's a lot more movement in the land than there really is.

[henrye]

This thread comes with a tip of the cap to Mark’s great thread

Every architect has to face a situation where there are relatively no natural features. Some architects enjoy the complete artistic freedom to create exactly what they want – often involving great amounts of earthmoving. But to many of us the earthmoving idea does not appeal which brings the question of how can you create compelling golf on a flat site.

I see this as the most difficult of all tasks since no matter how hard you try, you will always be limited by the flatness of the site. So I ask all of you - what creates a brilliant hole over flat terrain? What are the best examples where the architect’s imagination has overcome the situation? Obviously it involves the decision to provide some form of relief to the monotonous grade to create interest where there was none. Please share your examples IN DETAIL and photos if you can supply them.

Ian, I know I'm not answering your question, but is earthmoving really an issue if you can make the hole fit in with the surrounds?

[Sean_A]

This thread comes with a tip of the cap to Mark’s great thread

Every architect has to face a situation where there are relatively no natural features. Some architects enjoy the complete artistic freedom to create exactly what they want – often involving great amounts of earthmoving. But to many of us the earthmoving idea does not appeal which brings the question of how can you create compelling golf on a flat site.

I see this as the most difficult of all tasks since no matter how hard you try, you will always be limited by the flatness of the site. So I ask all of you - what creates a brilliant hole over flat terrain? What are the best examples where the architect’s imagination has overcome the situation? Obviously it involves the decision to provide some form of relief to the monotonous grade to create interest where there was none. Please share your examples IN DETAIL and photos if you can supply them.

Ian

I am a big fan of flat holes as a break from many holes with loads of movement - especially on links.  One of my favourite flat holes is Burnham's 7th.  It is often over-looked because of the holes in the dunes, but the 7th is one of the best on the course.  There are three key elements.  First and foremost is the ridge running down the middlish of the nearly the entire length of the hole and through the green. Second is the bunker tucked under the ridge on the left side of the landing zone which the ridge feeds.  Third is the water down the right rough.  Because the ridge runs through the green it makes a difference which side of the fairway one wants to be.  Essentially, the palyer wants to be on the same side of the fairway as the pin is on the green because the ridge can be used to feed the ball to the hole and/or act as back stop if chipping from off the green.  If you end up on the opposite side of the green for the chip or the approach then the ridge has to be traversed and this isn't so easy to judge.  I also like the hole because its so innocent looking.  Most folks cite the length (often heightened by wind) as the main problem, but in truth its not really an issue even if one can't reach the green in two.  

From the lower tee.


A look at the green from well past the driving zone.


Ciao  

[George Freeman]

Philippe,

Here is a shot from when I played Riviera's 10th hole: the tee is barely elevated, as you said - maybe five yards at most.

Funny that whenever you see pictures of the hole or video of it during tourament coverage, it always seems to be from an elevated position.  Originally I had the impression that the tee shot was really elevated, much like the first (I think?), which would make sense if you return to the clubhouse after 9 and then head back out down the hill that appears to be there on the 1st.  Funny how little elevation there actually is on the hole and is a completely different orientation than my initial impressions...      

[Mark_Rowlinson]

1st Royal Liverpool
17th TOC
8th Royal West Norfolk

[Anthony Gray]

  18 at Carnoustie

  

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

A good collection of holes built on an almost flat property are to be found at Donald Ross's course at Essex in Windsor, Ontario.

Sorry, I don't have pictures but it is amazing what he did back in the day with horses and buckets creating drainage swales and "setting up" his fairway bunkers and greens.

Perhaps Jeff Mingay can supply some pictures?

[JNagle]

A great example of a flat course that was masterfully designed (IMHO) in the Grace Course at Saucon Valley.  So many of the holes were routed on the low-lying flat ground.  The Gordon's did a masterful job of creating strategic long holes (Eugene Grace demanded the double dog-leg unreachable par 5) on flat ground.  The secret at the Grace Course is the scale and positioning of the bunkers.  I believe scale has more to do with it than anything else.  Large bunkers allowed the earthworks to appear gentle and broad on the flat landscape.  All in all a great course on flat ground.  

An interesting side note after this weekends Master's.  The story goes that Eugene Grace resigned as a member at Augusta after Cliff Roberts and Bobby Jones we discussing Sarazan's double-eagle.  Grace was disgusted and left the club.  He begins the design for the Grace Course in the 50's and all the par 5's are double dog-legs and unreachable in two.  That is of course until the equipment chagnes about 9 years ago.

[RJ_Daley]

Rustic Canyon's 12th is a real model of flat.  When there is a flat FW like that (albeit a significant bunker on the short side direct line to the green) you really need width to make the hole interesting with optional direction choice off the tee.  The flat FW becomes a relatively easy target to get to with either decision of left or right into the flatness, with perhaps one side favoring yet flirting with some element of danger and the other a bit longer but very easy to get to off the tee.  But, at the end of all the flatness in the FW, you need to have an interesting element of contour at the green that deals with the consequences of which area of flatness in the FW that you selected and attained in using the width choices.  Those green contours really have to be integral and very properly built, or draped over an ideal green site land corridor with convenient proper contouring to make a flat hole a real corker, it seems to me.

[Chip Gaskins]

#13 at San Francisco Golf Club

[David Kelly]

Rustic Canyon #12 may look flat but it is decidely downhill.

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