[JESII]

Pat,

I thought of Hidden creek because of the really good courses I have played it has as little elevation change as any but there really aren't any holes that come close to matching the flatness of #3 at Kingston Heath (which I believe was the germination of this thread...).

[Steve Salmen]

9 and 10 at Carnoustie are two of the most difficult consecutive par 4s in Scotland, without much elevation change at all. 

[Wade Whitehead]

Just to be current, any of the good holes at Harbor Town would qualify.

WW

[John Kirk]

Pumpkin Ridge, Witch Hollow, #11, 550 yard, double dogleg par 5

And another I cite regularly as an excellent flat hole:

Stanford University GC, #13, 430 yard par 4.

Sorry.  Too busy to find pictures today.

[Sean Leary]

Pumpkin Ridge, Witch Hollow, #11, 550 yard, double dogleg par 5

And another I cite regularly as an excellent flat hole:

Stanford University GC, #13, 430 yard par 4.

Sorry.  Too busy to find pictures today.

John,

How about #9 at Witch Hollow?

[John Kirk]

Hi Sean...#9 is also a good flat hole, as well as #1 and #16.  1-9-11-16 (an 18 to a small extent) all have the characteristic of a changing best line of attack based on pin position.

[Ian Andrew]

Somebody mentioned Riviera - which is not flat nor without interest. There are ravines, undulations, holes are set into hillsides and there is plenty of elevation change throughout.

What I was looking for are holes without barancas, ravines, oceans and other natural features.

I'm looking for great holes over what would have been dull terrain - but somehow enough was done to find greatness where it almost never should have occurred.


Sean,

I love your examples. I think you’re quite correct - following the same logic that Jim Nagle suggested - that angles of attack are the key. I think he's right that scale is important to establishing those angles.

I always thought the second green at Maidstone was a wonderful example of a green close to grade with a marvelous bunkering scheme and set of green contours - that made something very interesting from a dull situation.

[paul cowley]

#5 Yeamans Hall.  Tremendous Bunkering and mounding frames the hole.

Very good example.....the CC of Charleston has a few good ones too.

[Ed Oden]

#5 Yeamans Hall.  Tremendous Bunkering and mounding frames the hole.

Very good example.....the CC of Charleston has a few good ones too.

Paul, which holes at CC of Charleston are you thinking of?

[TX Golf]

How about 18 at Pebble??

Yes there is an ocean and small cliff to the left, but the hole itself is actually flat!!!

[Patrick Kiser]

Good call from Anthony on the 18th at Carnoustie and RJ for the 12th at Rustic.  And those two are so different.  Goes to show there's more than one way to skin the cat on this.

I was going to say the 14th at Pasa, but I don't think it fits the bill here.  Flattish land with some great hidden channels in the fairway.

As a player I think the joy of a flattish hole is how it can lull you into a false sense of security.  So the 12th at Rustic is a perfect example.

I think the contours of the green are what really make the difference given the angle into the green.  The width as well.  It can create a form of deception in having too many choices.  But above all ... there has to be good exposure to the wind.

I mean ... I play Poplar Creek down in Burlingame now and then and there's absolutely nothing special about the place.  But when the wind kicks in, it's an absolute blast.

I think if I couldn't have those three as essentials, I'd have to so some earth moving to make it interesting.  That or just don't build the hole.

[Norbert P]

Talking Stick North is still the poster child for me of flat sites.

Holes like #2 Boundary, with the barbed wire fence straight line OB left, represent great flat land design.  The closer you flirt with the OB, the better your angle into the green.

Bill, My initial thoughts of great flat golf reflexively takes me to your example.   I remember standing on the tee for the first time, contriving ideas of what to do to make the hole better.  By the time I walked off the green, I realized I was completely wrong.  Great hole and one of the most educational courses that I've ever played.  (Though I had worries that I had rabies. But that's another story.)

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean's excellent photos of New Zealand reminded me to mention Royal Antwerp which is one of the best flat courses I know. At least half a dozen holes could be cited as best examples of excellent flat holes.

[BCrosby]

Put my vote in the hat for Talking Stick North. A superb flat course. Great fun. The 2nd is just the beginning of the good holes there.

Also, as Mark noted, when I saw this thread I too thought of Sean's terrifc photo tour of New Zealand. I hope to visit it someday soon.

Bob

[BCrosby]

It always puzzles me why many people think that it is hard to design a good course on a generally flat site. It has been done many times. I think there are far more examples of mediocre  courses built on sites with too much elevation change.

I also want to second Crusty's comments above.

Bob

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