[JESII]

I guess bashing the par 5's isn't getting much traction...#16 must be a crap hole because nobody had an eagle putt...

[Ronald Montesano]

they all had eagle putts on 16...they opted to use seven iron instead!!!!!!

[Mike_Young]

Questions...for those that think there is no strategy on 16.....do you determine a holes strategy from the hole back or from the tee forward?

[Chuck Brown]

I guess most of the "nays" for #16 are not old enough to remember the 1975 Masters when that was the Sunday hole location.

I didn't see yesterday's play, but I think 16 is an excellent golf hole.  [In fact, i like it enough that we just built a similar hole at Common Ground in Denver.]  Those of you who have not been there, cannot appreciate how severe that green is ... I missed it to the right my first time there, and even though I have a pretty good short game, I was deathly afraid of hitting the next shot into the water.

I remember it well, Tom; you beat me to the punch in mentioning that fact.

But when I think of that era, and the so-called "Bear Tracks" putt as Weiskopf called it, I'd swear on a bible on Easter Sunday that the green (particularly the tier and the severity of the elevation change from the lower level to the upper?) was not as severe then as it has become now.  I don't know; I feel certain that the green has been re-contoured in the 30+ years since then.  It has, hasn't it?  At least once?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

 So, Pat, as the expert, what was the strategy?

Mike,

It varies greatly depending upon the direction and velocity of the wind.

It also varies in terms of ball flight.  Draw vs fade.
It varies upon trajectory, low versus high.

Don't forget that the tees were up, tempting players with short irons in their hands to gun for the hole.

What many also forget is the mindset of the golfer as he stands on the tee.
And, what's his position relative to the field.

Does he want to make birdie ?
Does he want to make par ?
Does he want to avoid bogey or worse.

All of those questions and decisions affect strategy.
When you blend them with the other factors, it's anything but a boring hole.

It's difficult for a viewer, sitting in their living room/den to understand the mental turbulence that may be affecting and influencing the golfer as he prepares to play # 16.

What you also don't see is the incredible slope on the upper tier.
It's anything but flat.

What's boring and seems void of strategy may be light years away from what the golfer is thinking.

[mike_malone]

 My only reference to strategy was the pin location on that day, not other locations on other days.

  Pat,

  Thanks for your reply. I think the range of choices are narrow. I also imagine most could hit their favored shot to get to the center of the green. Campbell's mistake was not strategic but execution.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

My only reference to strategy was the pin location on that day, not other locations on other days.

  Pat,

  Thanks for your reply. I think the range of choices are narrow. I also imagine most could hit their favored shot to get to the center of the green. Campbell's mistake was not strategic but execution.

How do you know that ?

[Tom_Doak]

Chuck:

All of the greens at Augusta have been rebuilt to USGA specs, sometime since 1975.  But, I don't think the contour on 16 was changed appreciably.  (Any contour changes that I know about have been made to FLATTEN hole locations.)

However the green plays way more difficult now because it's so much faster.  If you watch a tape from 1975 you'd jump out of your chair when you saw the guys putting, because it looks like they're going to knock their putts right off the green.  That's the difference between 10 and 13 on the Stimpmeter.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,
    The mindnumbing number of balls that hit into the slope.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

 Pat,

The mindnumbing number of balls that hit into the slope.

So you don't know whether they intended to employ a given strategy or mishit their shot, or a combination of both.

Do you know the relative size of the slope on that green in terms of the square footage it takes up, versus the square footage of the entire green ?

[John Kirk]

Almost no strategy whatsoever.
Pin back right, try to hit a one yard cut with the shortest possible club.
Pin front right, aim 0-1 yards left with your best shaped shot.
Pin on the left side, there's a few more options.  Today, Tiger hit what looked to be a punched hook with a 7-iron, and Phil hit 8-iron right at the flag.  But it's usually the simple draw shot.

Everybody is playing for par to the back right pin, and everybody is playing for birdie if the pin is anywhere else.

Kudos to Tom, Tom and Patrick trying hard to argue there's a lot of strategy at #16.  I would argue there's limited strategy at Augusta, and that each player generally tries to play the course the same way, excepting shorter hitters who may purposely lay up on par 5s.  Strategy comes into play when somebody mishits their first shot and must execute the best recovery plan.

Holes I can think of where two players might choose differing strategies on the same day, excluding the strategy of working the ball in a certain direction:  #3...that's it.  Sometimes guys will choose driver or spoon (#10, #13, #18).

There are so many great things about Augusta.  Firm, large fairways and green complexes with acres of short grass surrounding them are two of the most important.  Gosh it was fun this year.

[JESII]

#16 seems counter-intuitive in that the more dangerous hole location is the one further from the water...any truth to that in real life?

[Mike Hendren]

Very little strategy indeed.  However, since when is strategy the sole criterion by which great holes are measured?  The Saturday placement worked beautifully in tandem with the back bunker which had to be avoided at all costs as Campbell found out.   

What's wrong with making the greatest players in the world two putt uphill with break from distance?  Shouldn't a champion be called upon to negotiate that/those shot(s)?

I find the 16th to be an akward looking hole that offers tremendous elasticity and drama.

Bogey

[BCrosby]

Jim -

There is a lot of truth to that.

It's a fascinating green. Contra much of the thread above, I think the hole has tons of strategy. Maybe more than a good Redan, a distant cousin with the 16th.

The double irony at ANGC is that Maxwell, who has a reputation as a Golden Age great, made a series of changes that dumbed down a lot of MacK's strategy for the course.

RTJ, ten years later and with nothing like the same reputation for classic strategic course designs, made some wonderfully strategic changes to the course.  

Bob

[mike_malone]

  Strategy is not necessary by any means at Augusta. But, I thought that the pin location on #16 on Saturday was a good example of nonstrategy. For me , when the message is "avoid" not "go for" it is antistrategy.

    I am making no statement about the greatness of the hole. After all, I have never been there or played it.

   But, I do believe one can make a judgment from watching on TV when practically everyone ends up in the same place. I assume that professional golfers are hitting the type of shot they are most comfortable with when they all end up in one place.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mike Malone & John Kirk,

I had typed a lengthy response, but, unfortunately, hit the wrong key and lost it.

As to your claim that there's NO strategy at ANGC.

For starters, could you explain how there's NO strategy on # 2

Have either of you played the golf course as I'm curious to know if your assessment is experience based ?

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

  I wasn't claiming there was no strategy at ANGC. I was saying that is wasn't necessary for me to enjoy the tournament. The aerial views of #7 and #15 fairways are pretty goofy though!

[JESII]

I was about to jump in, but seeing GCA's version of a SEAL Commander on board has enabled me to kick back and observe...

[John Kirk]

Patrick,

I haven't played the course, so I can only base an opinion on watching the tournament a hundred or so times.

I didn't say there as no strategy; I said it looks there is limited strategy.  I'm sure some like to lay back on #2, on either side of the fairway, to give themselves a full swing to get at that day's pin.  You could also play just short and way left for a pitch and run at the right pin.

In another post, I said I thought the Golf Digest #1 ranking of Augusta National could be justified.  However, I do not see the pros using a wide variety of strategies to manuever their way around the course.  With the rare exception of a guy like Zach Johnson laying up on every par 5, most guys seem to play the course the same way.  Some need to lay up on par 5 holes.  Some will take more aggressive lines of attack.


By the way, I completely agree with Mike Hendren's comment.  Nothing wrong with making the players execute a long uphill lag putt on the 16th hole.  I find that to be a very difficult shot.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I like the front right position that you usually see on Friday.  
                                                             Jack

I agree...4 putts later I don't think Rory McIlroy would.

[CJ Carder]

Perhaps this is too easy of a question, but can the hole be simply a "risk-reward" par 3 without strategy? 

Everything I've read here so far indicates that the hole does indeed contain a great amount of risk and reward, particularly with certain pin locations. 

Now, whether the players are willing to take those risks is a different story.  Still, whether they realize the reward or not is entirely dependent on execution, not necessarily on "thinking" or "strategizing."

For a major championship, I think that's pretty cool.  To me, the architect is saying "ok boys, you've had your birdies on 13,14,15 and caught back up... let's see you execute under pressure for 16,17,18."

In my mind, one of the things that makes Augusta great is that it's full of these little "mini runs."  1 is a tough intro.  2-3 are birdie opps.  4-7 the player needs to hang on and make it through without blowing up.  8-9 can be taken advantage of.  10-12, look out.  13-15, let's make a run.  16-18, prove it.  It's punch-counter punch the whole way through.

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