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TEPaul

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2009, 10:45:10 PM »
brad:

As to what alternative Press had in mind for holes #3 and #4 (combined?) and the apparent par 5 on essentially what is now #5 (but obviously from a tee much farther back down the ridge) I'm not sure I understand it all very well.

I guess I've sort of understood that if #3 and #4 were sort of combined somehow into a longer par 4 (from around present #3 tee to #4 green) then the alternative #4 was going to be par 3 farther down the ridge towards #8 green and therefore he would've picked up enough yardage to make #5 a par 5 to essentially the same green position it has now (and considering he had to pick up there with Perry's existing #3 (now #6)).

See my Post #38 to Chris Clouser and his reply on Post #64. Nevertheless, and even with that, I don't think I understand what the alternative iterations were and why some of them couldn't or didn't happen.

Obviously I'm saying this at the moment sort of in the context of what #5 is today.

I realize it is pretty much a dead straight hole and that's OK with me given so many of the rest of the holes sort of turn in one way or the other somehow but still #5 just doesn't do that much for me and certainly compared to the rest out there.

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #101 on: March 28, 2009, 06:43:15 AM »
TP

You alternatives for 3/4/5 are right as far as I know, but this could still be an urban myth. I agree with your thoughts on 5 and feel it might be a better hole with a slightly different tee shot diagonal. If I have any issue with hole it is the tee shot.

And now #6, I know you will have some comments on the fairway cut on the right side near the big mound. All in all a wonderful hole, the distance of the 2nd shot is quite deceptive. 

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #102 on: March 28, 2009, 08:40:41 AM »
Teeing off on 3 & 5 off of those dune ridges is one cool feeling. I agree the fifth is not a favorite but it is demanding. My sense is the notion of widening the fairways would be erroneously looked upon as making the course easier.  What a pity.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #103 on: March 28, 2009, 10:01:02 AM »
Adam,

I agree. I think because of the short length overall, and pride of difficulty, that making the course easier is something in general that the membership probably would struggle with. I also do believe that the swaths of rough DO make it easier for the average player, so in general it works. If it were up to me, I would love to see some of the native cut back if it were possible. They have done this right of 5 bit I would do it more there.

I am OK with 8's roughlines as they are. 17 however I would like to see significantly widened. It narrows so much, and it is not necessary.

TEPaul

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #104 on: March 28, 2009, 10:41:18 AM »
"And now #6, I know you will have some comments on the fairway cut on the right side near the big mound. All in all a wonderful hole, the distance of the 2nd shot is quite deceptive."


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30677.0.html



Hole #6:


brad:


I probably would suggest that something be done with the fairway cuts on #6 but I'm far less sure about it than some of the others.

You've asked me to do a hole by hole analysis of PD, and I think I understand why you asked but at the same time I hope you recognize that I've only seen that course one time (even if it was over a period of 3-4 days playing it, and I sure did go out there for the express purpose of really analyzing the architecture) so clearly I cannot know the nuances of the course and certainly some of the holes as well as you or others.

I think that will show big-time with the 6th. I basically understand what's going on with this hole on its various shots and strategic options and even how they may work together in various ways but I suspect there is some kind of really nuancy balance or equilbrium involved in how those various strategic options work together or even against one another (if you don’t know what I mean by that I’ll explain it later in more detail) and I doubt I have enough experience on that hole to understand all of it.

First of all, I am aware of that seemingly really effective contour just over that bunker fronting the green that flows out left on I think a diagonal and what-all it may do to approach shots particularly from the left, but I doubt I have enough experience with it to understand all its ramification regarding tee shot and approach shot choices and shot values.

In other words, I approached that hole from the left every time and on purpose, and I thought I hit some good approach shots but a couple of them got sort of eaten up or perhaps spit out by the left front in various ways. That really surprised me but it’s pretty blind from over there and I couldn’t really see what happened to what I thought were some decent approach shots in both direction and distance---I just saw the results when I got up there.

In other words, I think I recognize that if you go left off the tee, it’s seemingly shorter but you’re inheriting some blindness and deceptive complexity from that angle certainly at the green.

I never tried to go right on the tee shot but others did and it looks to me like it may be a tad longer but you’re coming at that green from a better angle and with more visibility to the green given what is on the left and front near or at the green.

Given all that I sure would suggest they take out those rough swaths on both sides of the tee shot and really give the tee shot a lot of left or right fairway latitude because I think from either side (that is now somewhat in those rough swaths) it has some pretty interesting and important second shot strategic and optional ramifications that probably work in something of a really good “equilibrium” or “balance” for most golfers, if you know what I mean.

All in all this one just may be one of the most interesting and sophisticated architectural/strategic  arrangements I’ve ever seen, even if pretty nuancy, and is another example of why I’ve always been so high on Perry Maxwell; but again, I haven’t played #6 enough to understand it all or how much it may be that way.

So, I’m very interested to hear your take on this one.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 10:50:56 AM by TEPaul »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2009, 04:15:31 PM »
TP

Have always thought the second shot was one of the most deceptive out there. I like attacking from the right and to me the ideal location might now be rough. There is a big mound on the right that if carried to the back gives a turbo kick. I plain and simple want to have the best look possible at this green. I now remember the first couple of times playing it and played it from the left around the bunker and always found this a very difficult second, more blind and hitting directly over the bunker 20 yards short of the green. Your comment on how sophisticated this hole is spot on, a great way to think about it and one that most miss. This is one of the holes (so far 1-6) along with #1 that really benefited from going to fairway around the green. The revamped bunkering is also a major improvement in the past 3-4 years. As to the green, you don't want to be above the hole but that said it has a nasty false front that extends over and around to the left side.

Tom, enjoy hearing your thoughts, you know your stuff, much like Ran, BUT YOU CAN PLAY!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 06:18:37 PM by brad_miller »

Mike Bowline

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2009, 04:37:04 PM »
I am just now joining the joy of this thread.

#6 is one of the most fun tee shots on the course. The downhill feel of the shot contributes to the fun, and with the prevailing right-to-left wind, a ball must really be hit correctly to land and remain on the preferred right side of the fairway.

The second shot is deceptive, due to a rise in the land about 50 yards short of the green.

And what a green! Don't be long. And the wind will indeed affect putts as they roll on this green.

Each and every time I have played PD (of the five times I have been blessed) I walk away deep in thought as I try to think of some reason I can pick up my LIFE and move to Hutchinson, KS. The course and club is just that good. And yes, I am serious: this is a course you would move to a town for!

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #107 on: March 31, 2009, 07:28:23 PM »
Bump for TEP, Sean Leary, Jeff Loh. Tom, I am really enjoying your comments.

TEPaul

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #108 on: March 31, 2009, 09:44:22 PM »
brad:

I'm taking off for about a day or so but it's been occuring to me that I may not recall some of the nuances and detailed specifics of some of the holes to come well enough to make very cogent comments about them. There are some I wouldn't mind commenting on but others I don't know that my remarks would be worthwhile compared to what I've already done or what others on here can do who have more experience with that course, such as yourself.

But if you want them, no problem. You might have to help me with recollection of some details and specifics though. I did go out there with every intention of studying the hell out of the course and its architecture and I did that for something like 3-4 straight days but that was almost two years ago now and as you know I'm getting to be an old man with all that comes with that!  ;)

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #109 on: March 31, 2009, 09:56:46 PM »
Tom, just pick the holes you are most comfortable with from 7 on. I will add my comments and we can circle back to fill in the others. I have enjoyed your insights very much and still believe that the people that have not been to PD in the past 2-3 years don't know how much solid work Bill/Ben and Dave have done with Stan George's teams help.

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #110 on: April 01, 2009, 10:07:59 AM »
I think the 11th hole is genius.

You have a dogleg left with a choice off the tee to either lay it up to the fairway bunker, or blast it over/past to the right side of the fairway, and the choice SHOULD be dictated by the day's hole location, because of the knob dead front-center of the elevated green.  If you are approaching from the wrong angle, the chances of getting the ball close are slim.  A right pin demands you approach from the right side, a left demands you probably lay back a bit and approach from the left. 

And, the hole is long enough to prevent the longest hitters from avoiding the strategy and angles with a simple high spinning shot, because most people are hitting, at shortest, probably about a 7 iron in.  At least that's what I recall about yardages.  I think you can blast over the bunker and leave the really short iron in, but I don't remember exactly because I either never tried, or never pulled it off.

Also, if you try and take too much club off the tee and get greedy, and you fan it a little right, you are in the gunsch, thus making for a risky play.

After 3 rounds of losing balls on this hole with various clubs, I finally resorted to a 5 iron (HOWLING downwind) from the tee, about a 225 shot, and found that this put me in much better position, despite having a much longer club in my hand for a second shot. 


brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #111 on: April 01, 2009, 11:16:53 AM »
Big difference depending on wind. Downwind driver or 3 wood  (for me) leaves anything from 160-180 in. To bounce the ball in you must run it up to the right of the mound but left of right greenside bunker. Balls hit at or left of mound get rejected. The second shot here is one of the best on the course, the mound and how it makes the hole play is brilliant. I can not land the ball on the green downwind  (from that distance) and hold it. I find the center right part of the fairway the best place to be. Good Press green, hard to make puts. Par 4.5/5 into the wind.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #112 on: April 01, 2009, 01:10:33 PM »
That mound on the front of 11 is awesome. In the national member guest last year in the horserace, the hole was cut just over it on the front of the green. Down wind, the only way to get it close was to bounce it in short of the mound.

I believe 12 is better from the original tee box rather than the one on the dune. Makes it a potentially driveable par 4 with trouble anywhere. Brad, have you played much it from over there?

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #113 on: April 01, 2009, 06:03:31 PM »
Sean,

No, but I now plan to.  :)  Can't wait to get TEP take on some more holes!


Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #114 on: April 13, 2009, 01:12:05 PM »
Bump for Tom Paul.

Just got back from a quick trip this weekend.

Work will begin on the open area right  behind 7 green and the 1st and 8th tee boxes this summer. I haven't seen the plans, but essentially, a sand dune will be created behind 7 green to enclose the area behind the green instead of looking through into the parking lot. New back tees  for 1 and 8  adding some more length will be created as well (Definitely a good thing for famed number 8 ).

The new greens are coming in very nicely.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 04:13:03 PM by Sean Leary »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #115 on: April 13, 2009, 02:06:53 PM »
Sean,

Was Huck with you??

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #116 on: April 13, 2009, 04:14:30 PM »
Sean,

Was Huck with you??

Brad,

Unfortunately, only in spirit....