The scale of the ANGC

[David Stamm]

It never ceases to amaze me the scale of the course that ones seems to get when watching on TV. When they show the 5th from tee to green or the view looking back up the fw on 10 from behind the green really gives one a sense of the grandeur of the place. Does ANGC look as "big" in real life as it does on TV?

[Wayne_Freedman]

It looks bigger, greener, and grander than ever, since we upgraded to that new Panasonic.

[Bill_McBride]

It looks bigger, greener, and grander than ever, since we upgraded to that new Panasonic.

HD doesn't hurt either!

[BCrosby]

David -

The only course I've played with a similar scale is PVGC. They are both big, big golf courses.

Size matters.

Bob

[David Stamm]

David -

The only course I've played with a similar scale is PVGC. They are both big, big golf courses.

Size matters.

Bob

It certainly looks that way to me, Bob. 10 seems almost cathedral like, sort of the way one feels when standing in (pick one) of the massive cathedrals in Europe and looking down the nave. Also, when I watched Cabrera play up from the bottom of the green on 5 he looked so small.

[TEPaul]

David:

Way bigger. TV always narrows or shrinks scale.

I had never seen ANGC in person until the Masters of '07. Everyone always said first timers will be blown away by the topography of the place. That didn't surprise me at all really because where I live and where I've been we have plenty of that kind of thing here and there.

What really surprised me was some of those greens at ANGC, how bold their contours are and how bold some of the mounds and contours around them are. I've never seen anything like many of those greens and surrounds there and particularly given that much of the bunkering seems merely supplemental in a minimalistic albeit quite strategic way.

The other thing that is truly surprising about the place for a first timer is even if they say they have it in recent years there really is no rough on that golf course as most all golfers think of it. That as well has a pretty big impact when you first see it and of course that too very much increases the scale of the place.

[John Kirk]

Both Sand Hills and Ballyneal look big.  Old Macdonald looks big.

I love Augusta's short game chipping areas around the greens.  I contend they offer more interesting short game options than Pinehurst #2.

[Kyle Henderson]

I love Augusta's short game chipping areas around the greens.  I contend they offer more interesting short game options than Pinehurst #2.

Is that opinion based on first-hand experiences?

I'd be curious to learn how you (or anyone else that has played both) would compare Pinehurst's short game options to those at Ballyneal or Pacific Dunes.

Certainly, the short game options seem (based on TV viewing)  to be the principle element of Augusta Nat'l that has yet to be severely tarnished by course renovations (though the green contours have been softened repeatedly to copensate increasingly fast conditions).

[Mike Sweeney]

David:

Way bigger. TV always narrows or shrinks scale.

I had never seen ANGC in person until the Masters of '07. Everyone always said first timers will be blown away by the topography of the place. That didn't surprise me at all really because where I live and where I've been we have plenty of that kind of thing here and there.

What really surprised me was some of those greens at ANGC, how bold their contours are and how bold some of the mounds and contours around them are. I've never seen anything like many of those greens and surrounds there and particularly given that much of the bunkering seems merely supplemental in a minimalistic albeit quite strategic way.

The other thing that is truly surprising about the place for a first timer is even if they say they have it in recent years there really is no rough on that golf course as most all golfers think of it. That as well has a pretty big impact when you first see it and of course that too very much increases the scale of the place.

Tom,

Just curious on a scale of 1-10, how would you rate Augusta, Gulph Mills, Sand Hills, Shinnecock and Pine Valley? I have not been to Augusta, just trying to get a feel.

[Mike Sweeney]

I would think that Sand Hills would be the benchmark at 10:




Bethpage would be an 8?




Walnut Lane a 1.



Plaifield a 5-6?

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike,

Shinnecock is grand, but would be a bit behind ANGC IMO. The National is more "three-dimensional" with dramatic rises and falls in the topography. If you have not visited ANGC it is hard to imagine the severe nature of some of the slopes... like the fall on #10 from tee to green. Also, there is a very different feel on the holes in the lower portion of the property versus the ones on the higher parts. It is a grand stage indeed!

[Stan Dodd]

David,
I was thinking the same thoughts in regard to scale of Augusta and golf in general.  From wide open spaces frm the tee to a smaller scale the green and finally the hole
Does the adding of trees and a first cut somehow minimize the grand scale of Augusta?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

Just curious on a scale of 1-10, how would you rate Augusta, Gulph Mills, Sand Hills, Shinnecock and Pine Valley? I have not been to Augusta, just trying to get a feel."



Mike:

You know on some reflection that is actually a fasinating question, particularly when you give me those particular courses to consider the question. I guess one could speak about scale from a couple of different perspectives, don't you think? For instance, the size (scale) of the actual man-made architecture in relation to what it's on and what's around it or the size of everything one can see? Which one do you want me to consider or would you like me to consider all of them or at least both of them?

Very good question indeed!

[Peter Pallotta]

David - yes, and for some strange reason, in the three dozen years of watching the Masters I never noticed the 'scale' of the place until this year. Maybe it was a series of photos of the original course that I looked at just recently, but what struck me is the way trees were used originally (and even now, with the changes) in a way that seems not to diminish the scale but enhance it.  Vistas are created, and vistas that often "open up" in the most unexpected places.

Peter 

[Mike Sweeney]

For instance, the size (scale) of the actual man-made architecture in relation to what it's on and what's around it or the size of everything one can see? Which one do you want me to consider or would you like me to consider all of them or at least both of them?

Very good question indeed!

It's Golf Club Atlas, make it up as you go! Bob Crosby made me think of it when he said Pine Valley. Yes, PV (and Merion) has some big bunkering but from TV Augusta would seem to be on a much bigger scale than PV. Because of the "individualized holes" at PV it seems more like a 6 to me where Augusta would be in Bethpage territory of an 8. Even the trees at Augusta look big, again from TV.

I am a huge fan of courses built with big "scale": Bethpage, Sand Hills, Yale, Fishers. I still think about Wild Horse often as being the perfect "everyday" scale for a course.

[Doug Wright]

So Many Masters/ANGC threads, so little time...

On my first visit there last week, I was struck by
both the scale AND the intimacy of Augusta National GC.
It has much to do with the routing, the terrain
and the corners (not just Amen) that comprise
the course. From the clubhouse area, the course
appears to have grand scale as you look out over the
1st, 9th and 18th holes to the holes beyond. There are other
spots on the course where this scale is evident, as at the
top of the hill on 2 and 15. But once you get
down the hill past 10 green to Amen corner, there is an
intimacy that is striking. The same is true around the
3 green/4 tee and green/ 5 tee area and around
the 1 green/ 2 tee/ 8 green/9 tee area. The proximity
of greens to tees enhances this feeling of intimacy.

I found Augusta National to be more like
a mountain golf course than a parkland course due to the
extreme elevation changes.

Very different from a Sand Hills or a Ballyneal.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

ANGC is on the same scale as Bethpage Black -- not counting the other courses mind you -- but just the Black would be roughly the same size.