Was there any strategy on # 16 Saturday?

[Ronald Montesano]

You'd have to grow grass three inches long to render that slope on 16 green ineffectual for amateurs, Jaques.  You're essentially saying that amateurs don't belong on Augusta; no matter what you do to the green speeds, you can't increase the size of that shelf and balls will still slide off.

You can't compare sports that require player-to-player engagement with sports that do not.  Well, you can, but I don't.  Golf is player versus course/arena, not player versus other player attempting to interfere.  Golf is more comparable to swimming and running than any other sport/game.

[Doug Siebert]

Ronald, its the 16th hole.  Amateurs wouldn't putt off the top down the slope and into the pond if the pin was in front.  If they'd learned anything over the first 15 holes they'd have learned that the greens are really fast, especially downhill, and thus just touch the putt on its way.  Its not like hitting the ball softly is a skill that's difficult to master.

The reason amateurs do that sort of thing sometimes is that they can underestimate green speed or slope.  Putting from the top of the hill would be one of their easier putts, at least they wouldn't have to worry about a crazy break, or about the ball coming back at them (which they would when putting from below to a pin on top)

ANGC has reworked other greens in recent years to create new pin positions, maybe they should do the same for 16.

[Ronald Montesano]

Doug, EXACTLY...it's the 16th hole and most amateurs don't exhibit the reserve that you have clearly mastered.  You might be able to "touch it" the precise amount, but I'll wage that not all ams can do.  Also, not all ams will aim at the proper target to minimize horizontal error, so that will compound the miss.  There wouldn't be a double break, or would there?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
What wine are you drinking?  I bet the scoring spectrum on # 12 was wider than on #16 today."


You missed the point, genius. Perhaps you should look carefully at that hole and that Saturday pin in person and try standing on that tee in the Masters and considering your strategic "risk/reward" options. 

Or you could just belay all that and just ask Chad Campbell.

[John Kirk]

I don't need to see the hole in person to know that when the pin is back right, 90% of the players must execute a steeply uphill putt from 30-60 feet for their second shot.

Spin it any way you want; I'm not buying this is a great hole.  Too few possible outcomes, regardless of pin position.  Even the Sunday pin position doesn't really bring the lake into play that often.  Most everyone tries to trickle it down the hill 10 yards right of the hole.

[Doug Siebert]

Ronald,

I don't think you need to touch it any "precise amount".  Just get it off the flatter section on top where today's pin was and gravity will do the rest.  It didn't matter whether guys hit their shots into that hillside today landing fairly dead or with a good amount of backspin.  They all ended up in pretty much the same place, because it flattens out again near the bottom.

The talent of producing the precise amount of touch would come into play with for example a shot from the back left of #18 to today's pin position.  When Tiger hit his chip it bumped into the hill and didn't carry much speed but still went a fair bit past the hole.  Its fast and downhill, but not so downhill (like 16) that once rolling nothing will stop it.  On a downhill where the ball can stop you need to gauge how hard to hit it because going short can be a problem as well as going long.  On a downhlll where it won't stop until it reaches the bottom you just need to get it moving and there's a much larger margin for error.

You are right, of course, that they might not read the putt correctly and thus have an overly large horizontal error, but you were suggesting they'd putt into the bunker or the pond, not that they'd three putt.  I'll buy that amateurs three putt.  I'd buy amateurs three putting plenty at ANGC if the greens stimped at 7, because most people stink at reading greens.

[Phil Benedict]

The green is awful.  90% of the approach shots end up in the same place.  When the hole is on the left there are lots of birdies, while right hole locations mean one player after another has to two putt from 30 plus feet.  No one ever makes that putt.  Boring!

[Mike_Young]

What?  Plenty of strategy there.....those guys leave it that short for a reason....long is a certain bogey.....seems to me it has plenty of strategy for a sat pin on a 16th hole......while you will not see many birdies you can see some doubles if guys start trying to get too close.....plus.....do you know how hard it is to two putt that green from down below?  Or the right bunker shot possibly across the green into whatever......come on.....

[Sean_A]

Not much strategy at all and it would be worse for amateurs with that pin placement.  Its the speed of the green which makes the Sunday placement but kills two other day's placement.  I would like to see the top right shelf widened to at least tempt pros to get the ball on that shelf.  The only guys who go in the bunker don't make mental mistakes, they make physical mistakes.  Still, the Sunday placement probably makes up for today's.

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

What?  Plenty of strategy there.....those guys leave it that short for a reason....long is a certain bogey.....seems to me it has plenty of strategy for a sat pin on a 16th hole......while you will not see many birdies you can see some doubles if guys start trying to get too close.....plus.....do you know how hard it is to two putt that green from down below?  Or the right bunker shot possibly across the green into whatever......come on.....

GOD, how did I not see it.  Mike and I are completely in agreement.  Strategy, after all, is defined by an almighty power decreeing that there is one and only one way to accomplish something.  And to think I previously thought otherwise.  My eyes have been opened, I see the light, and it is...dull.

[Mike_Young]

What?  Plenty of strategy there.....those guys leave it that short for a reason....long is a certain bogey.....seems to me it has plenty of strategy for a sat pin on a 16th hole......while you will not see many birdies you can see some doubles if guys start trying to get too close.....plus.....do you know how hard it is to two putt that green from down below?  Or the right bunker shot possibly across the green into whatever......come on.....

GOD, how did I not see it.  Mike and I are completely in agreement.  Strategy, after all, is defined by an almighty power decreeing that there is one and only one way to accomplish something.  And to think I previously thought otherwise.  My eyes have been opened, I see the light, and it is...dull.

Ronald,
Glad I could help you see the light.....
Now where I really get confused is the difference between this mental strategy and this physcal strategy in post #33.....hmm....

[Tom_Doak]

I guess most of the "nays" for #16 are not old enough to remember the 1975 Masters when that was the Sunday hole location.

I didn't see yesterday's play, but I think 16 is an excellent golf hole.  [In fact, i like it enough that we just built a similar hole at Common Ground in Denver.]  Those of you who have not been there, cannot appreciate how severe that green is ... I missed it to the right my first time there, and even though I have a pretty good short game, I was deathly afraid of hitting the next shot into the water.

[TEPaul]

After looking at the hole in the '07 Masters (the only time I've ever been there) I feel the hole would be even better in both look and play if it did not have that bunker next to the pond. It would play more intense if it didn't have that bunker but I think that would be a plus as it's not that long a par 3. I think no bunker next to the pond would make that awesome diagonal even better and look even better. It would make the diagonal harder to lock on visually from the tee.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike and others,
Just because you don't like or don't understand one pin position, doesn't mean you should diss the golf hole.  #16 is one of the most exciting holes out there (especially today when the pin in the back on the lower tier).  Everyone knows there is a good chance for a 2 or even a 1.  Like almost every hole at Augusta, if you have not seen it in person and spent time there, it is really hard to comprehend. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Thanks to ASAP Sports (with whom I am not affiliated), we get this from Chad Campbell:

CHAD CAMPBELL: I hit 6-iron. Obviously I guess I should have hit a 7-iron. We had 173 into the wind. You would think it would be perfect. I thought I had to hit it good to get it up top on the shelf, but you know, that's the way it goes. It's hard when the guy in front of you hits a shot and it goes up and balloons and wind hits it and for me to stand up there, Kenny is at least a half a club to a club longer than I am. So me hitting 7, I wouldn't think I would even get my ball to where he got his to.  It's hard to say. Obviously we hit the wrong club, but it was hard to pick a 7-iron at that time.

Despite all my bluster, this is exactly what I want to read from a golfer of any ability level.  Here's another great quote which would seem to support my theory that you can putt off the top shelf, into the agua or the arena.  It's Campbell again, discussing his bunker play:

CHAD CAMPBELL: Yeah, it was really a great shot. It was the wrong club. (Laughter).
It's just a mistake you can't really make. That's the only place on that hole you can't hit it. You can make par anywhere else, but that pin, you don't even know the water is there. I don't really know what happened. The thing just took off. Like the wind just laid down -- the wind just ate Kenny's up. Obviously didn't hit mine at all.  You get it back there, and I was hitting that shot, I was actually trying to -- I mean, there was probably about ten percent chance of me landing it in that first cut. If you don't land it in that first cut and you land it on the green, it could go in the water.  So I didn't -- it's hard to explain this. I was trying to land it in that little area, but my miss was to keep it in the bunker, so that's kind of why I didn't hit it very hard. You know, you get it on the upslope, you can keep it on that shelf.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm not clear on just what it is you guys are looking for...

The purpose of the sixteenth with that Saturday placement is to create drama by either a player making a mistake (Campbell) or a player pulling off a miracle and ending up with the ball on the tiny, impossible to hit shelf. Otherwise, it creates a challenge to get down in two from 50 feet down the hill.

The purpose of the sixteenth with the Sunday pin placement is to create drama by seeing which players in contention will funnel the ball right to hole and make birdies and which players will not. And even with a poorly judged shot the same funnel makes possible things like the Tiger chip-in from a few years back.

A Par 3 sixteenth hole in a major championship does not exist so to provide a fun rollercoaster ride and easy birdie or par for a bunch of hackers who enjoy aiming away from the hole and seeing the ball swoop around. Don't be fooled by that aspect of the Sunday pin placement. It's there to provide a variety of easy and hard hole locations that test and reward the best players in the world, playing for huge stakes. Not many Par 3's are a whole lot better, although one of them comes four holes earlier on the same course.

[Sean_A]

I guess most of the "nays" for #16 are not old enough to remember the 1975 Masters when that was the Sunday hole location.

I didn't see yesterday's play, but I think 16 is an excellent golf hole.  [In fact, i like it enough that we just built a similar hole at Common Ground in Denver.]  Those of you who have not been there, cannot appreciate how severe that green is ... I missed it to the right my first time there, and even though I have a pretty good short game, I was deathly afraid of hitting the next shot into the water.

Tom

Does your Common Ground version of #16 have a wider top shelf than AGNC's?

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm not clear on just what it is you guys are looking for...

The purpose of the sixteenth with that Saturday placement is to create drama by either a player making a mistake (Campbell) or a player pulling off a miracle and ending up with the ball on the tiny, impossible to hit shelf. Otherwise, it creates a challenge to get down in two from 50 feet down the hill.

Not true...there was no drama, as only Campbell hit enough club to get it back there.  Kim had a unique putt, but only because he fanned his shot.  If he had not blocked it, he would have hit the ridge and gone down into the cauldron.  There is only one way to get it up there, which eliminates any potential strategy.  Dramatic?  I guess.  Strategic?  Hail No!

[Mike_Young]

Mike and others,
Just because you don't like or don't understand one pin position, doesn't mean you should diss the golf hole.  #16 is one of the most exciting holes out there (especially today when the pin in the back on the lower tier).  Everyone knows there is a good chance for a 2 or even a 1.  Like almost every hole at Augusta, if you have not seen it in person and spent time there, it is really hard to comprehend. 

Mark,
If you mean Mke Y.....have not dissed the hole.....

[Brent Hutto]

There is only one way to get it up there, which eliminates any potential strategy.  Dramatic?  I guess.  Strategic?  Hail No!

I guess we're back to the age-old question "What do you mean by strategy?" then. If there is only one low-percentage way to get a makable birdie putt then "strategy" might mean recognizing that and opting not to try and get a makable birdie putt.

I use the word "strategy" to mean knowing your own game, the conditions at the moment and making the optimum decision about how to proceed. For instance, on a dead-calm day after heavy rain when the ball is going to sit right where it lands it may make sense to try and judge a 170-yard iron shot perfectly and plop it on the shelf. Any other day, maybe not.

I get the sense that you use "strategy" to mean some cagey way of getting the best outcome without having to execute the shot with an extremely high difficulty factor. By that reckoning, any forced carry needs a banked path around one side where you can putt the ball so you don't have to hit over the water, innit? One needs to guard against invoking "strategy" to mean every shot should have some clever and non-obvious way of accomplishing the equivalent of perfect execution of a difficult (but obvious) shot. That is IMHO a Cloud Cuckoo Land version of "strategy" that is not helpful in designing or evaluating golf courses.

[Andy Troeger]

The great thing about the 16th is the variety of possible pin locations. The set-up for the day determines whether there's a reasonable birdie chance or whether the hole is really tough and the "strategy" is to figure how best to make a par.

The strategy to the tough pins is very obvious--either flirt with disaster right to try to get the ball into a small area, or take the safer play and try to 2-putt. Most of the players felt the risk was not worth the reward and played safe--not the most exciting to watch but not every pin on every green needs to be easy and accessible.

The strategy to the lower pins to me is less interesting but more exciting to watch because there's so much green that will funnel the ball towards those locations.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean A:  I wasn't looking at my old map of the 16th at Augusta when we built the hole; we weren't trying to make an exact copy.  I suspect our top shelf is a LITTLE wider than the one at Augusta, but not very much.  It's pretty severe for a public course ... but I am assuming they won't have the greens running at 13 on the stimp, and there will be 1-1/2 inch rough on the bank from the green down to the pond on our course, so it won't be as severe if you miss the green to the right.

[PThomas]

I guess most of the "nays" for #16 are not old enough to remember the 1975 Masters when that was the Sunday hole location.

I didn't see yesterday's play, but I think 16 is an excellent golf hole.  [In fact, i like it enough that we just built a similar hole at Common Ground in Denver.]  Those of you who have not been there, cannot appreciate how severe that green is ... I missed it to the right my first time there, and even though I have a pretty good short game, I was deathly afraid of hitting the next shot into the water.

perhaps this is nitpicking a bit, but the pin was more toward the water in the 75 Masters...it wasn't where it ususally is lately, but it definitely wasnt in the spot it was yesterday or close to the bunker

[JESII]

Strange thread...wasn't this the hole where the guy in the final group, tied for the lead, and without a bogey up to that point made a double bogey? Just asking...

[Brent Hutto]

JES,

I thought I saw that too. I guess the problem is he made it with a bad swing instead of bad strategy.