Was there any strategy on # 16 Saturday?

[mike_malone]

 I couldn't find any. It seemed that the only thought was to it hit straight at the flag and be short.

[PThomas]

agreed, very boring...yet we see that pin placement every year

[Ronald Montesano]

It's a bad green.  It has front left (the Sunday pin), front right and the top.

[J_ Crisham]

Mike,  I agree. It was very anticlimactic to have the best players in the world unable to get within 35 feet of a pin with a seven iron. Keep in mind the greens were fairly soft. Had they been hard I'm not sure anyone would have even thought about the upper shelf. Worst of the 4 pin placements on this green IMO.    Jack

[John Moore II]

Seems to be a pretty relevant strategy on any par 3. What was the strategy involved on 12? Pick a yardage and pray its correct and the wind doesn't pick up and knock the ball down into the pond? Par 3's require one shot. Ummm...unless we want to assume tour guys will play the ball on the ground, how much strategy is involved in playing any par 3? Pick a yardage, hit the ball to the lower side of the flag, make a good putt. I don't recall that strategy being much different from any other par 3 I've ever seem.

[mike_malone]

I guess strategy is tough on any par three, but at least the Sunday placement allows two possibilities.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

With regard to # 16 green and the hole locations, how many who responded have actually seen the hole in person ?

It's a wonderful hole, blending a water hazard, bunkers and a sloped and tiered green.

If you play the hole you get a better appreciation for the hole locations and the difficulty that particular hole location presents.

[Tim Bert]

I was thinking the same thing watching the TV.  They should have just let everyone take a drop on the bottom portion of the green and putt up.  It would have saved some time.  Oh wait, I forgot about Campbell... Doh!

Unfortunately tomorrow we get the same thing except it becomes a who can funnel their ball within inches the best.  At least the water can occassionally come into play on Sunday for someone that really mishits it.

[mike_malone]

 I think of strategy as the choices made before hitting the shot. I imagine many thoughts go through your head on #12 as to which club, what flight , what shape. The wind makes the strategy.

[John Moore II]

I was thinking the same thing watching the TV.  They should have just let everyone take a drop on the bottom portion of the green and putt up.  It would have saved some time.  Oh wait, I forgot about Campbell... Doh!

Unfortunately tomorrow we get the same thing except it becomes a who can funnel their ball within inches the best.  At least the water can occassionally come into play on Sunday for someone that really mishits it.

Well, the water came into play for Chad Campbell, thats probably why he chunked that first shot out of the bunker, no?

[Tim Bert]

With regard to # 16 green and the hole locations, how many who responded have actually seen the hole in person ?

It's a wonderful hole, blending a water hazard, bunkers and a sloped and tiered green.

If you play the hole you get a better appreciation for the hole locations and the difficulty that particular hole location presents.

Patrick - I posted after you, so you weren't directly talking to me, but I think you make a good point.  I will clarify my comments since I have not seen it in person.  

It looks like a really fun hole to play, particularly for those of us that can't hit to the middle of the green on demand.  It is dreadfully boring hole to WATCH on TV just about every Saturday at the Masters.  

[Ian_L]

I couldn't find any. It seemed that the only thought was to it hit straight at the flag and be short.

Couldn't you argue that the right pins offer more strategy?  Go for the pin and risk short-siding yourself, or play it safe and leave yourself a simple (for them) two-putt.  Mickelson pulled his a bit right I believe and was in trouble.

[mike_malone]

 So, Pat, as the expert, what was the strategy?

[Tim Bert]

I was thinking the same thing watching the TV.  They should have just let everyone take a drop on the bottom portion of the green and putt up.  It would have saved some time.  Oh wait, I forgot about Campbell... Doh!

Unfortunately tomorrow we get the same thing except it becomes a who can funnel their ball within inches the best.  At least the water can occassionally come into play on Sunday for someone that really mishits it.

Well, the water came into play for Chad Campbell, thats probably why he chunked that first shot out of the bunker, no?

Yes, Campbell was certainly the outlier this afternoon.  Not sure what he was thinking on the tee - it looked like he was trying to be really aggressive, and that's not the hole to do it on Saturday.

[mike_malone]

 Campbell said he hit the wrong club.

[J_ Crisham]

With regard to # 16 green and the hole locations, how many who responded have actually seen the hole in person ?

It's a wonderful hole, blending a water hazard, bunkers and a sloped and tiered green.

If you play the hole you get a better appreciation for the hole locations and the difficulty that particular hole location presents.

Pat,  I have had the good fortune to attend several Masters and have sat on the right side of the green(near the 17th tee) . I can recall one year seeing only 2 balls hold the upper shelf in the afternooon. The yardage being about 170 yds makes for a pretty improbable shot by even the tour guys. I would agree that this is a great hole-just not my favorite pin position. I like the front right position that you usually see on Friday.  
                                                             Jack

[Ronald Montesano]

That tier is not large enough to accept a shot under most conditions, with green speeds as excessive as they are at Augusta.  Having never played the hole does not disqualify me from commenting lucidly:  the middle of the green is one big slide, removing all mid-green pin positions from consideration.  The green is as controversial as #18 at Olympic Club was when Janzen beat Stewart.  It's a nice hole, an aesthetically-pleasing hole for gardeners, but it's not a great hole.  It's a typical RTJ Senior golf hole.

[mike_malone]

 Jack,

   I agree that the front right has strategic appeal. Is it just because it is shorter? Could it be that the bunker gives the player a good visual clue as to where to hit it? Is there more space to land the ball?

[J_ Crisham]

Mike,   It plays to 140 yds when front right. The players generally hit 9 iron. It is also holeable from the bunker short. The landing area is small-probably an 8yd area. anything left will filter down 45 feet away. Almost a hole in one here by Palmer in 1993-that was fun to see!   Jack

[mike_malone]

 So, the bunker doesn't discourage going for the flag as the bunker Campbell hit into does.

[TEPaul]

I think the hole has a ton of strategies, even where the pin was today which seems to be the tradational Saturday pin. The deal with the over-all strategies with ANGC's 16th is its pin position rotations which created massively different risk/reward considerations and strategies and scoring expectations and realities. I think it all adds up to diverse strategic considerations (depending on the pin placement) which creates massive variety in a scoring spectrum context, and its made even better on this hole because it is late in the course's routing sequence.

Today's pin position for those players seems to be very much don't look for a birdie off the tee, watch out for an obvious bogie off the tee and a safish par is fairly evident and accommodating. There's a lot going on for those players with that pin today (probably somewhat to do with real temptation for a real reward---ie birdie, and I bet the scoring spectrum shows that----not necessarily birdies against other results but par against bogies (the latter being pretty easy to make without strength of strategic planning and expectation).

[mike_malone]

 Tom,

   What wine are you drinking?  I bet the scoring spectrum on # 12 was wider than on #16 today.

[J_ Crisham]

Mike, I would be remiss if I suggested the front right bunker would be where you would make your mistake. It is recoverable but not always as some bunker shots end up taking the slope and end up 45 feet from the pin. It is even possible to miss the green pin high on the right and have a putt to the hole from fringe or "rough" when the front pin is used. This is my 3rd favorite par 3 on the course. 12 is the most compelling with 6 being a fun green to watch approach shots.     Jack

[Ronald Montesano]

Notice we've fallen into the trap of judging architectural/strategic merit on the pro game only.  How much more ridiculous would today's pin position be for amateurs who are not assured of a two-putt from 40 or more feet away?  How many amateurs, reversing the hole locations, would putt off the green and into the front left bunker or into the pond from above the hole?

[J_ Crisham]

Ronald,   Average players do not belong on a course set up for a major. The difference btween us and them is unfathomable. Try running down Reggie Bush in the open field-you see my point I hope. We hit shots so different than the guys on TV it isn't even close. We could probably hit a bucket of balls and not hold the back shelf at 16.                jack