[Joe Bausch]

I ran into these two tidbits recently concerning a hole called an 'alps' at Greenwich Country Club in Connecticut.  The first is from the Salt Lake Telegram on August 9, 1910:



I also have a 'golf comment' article from the August 28, 1910 issue of the Philadelphia Press that seems to editorialize just a bit, plus it states it was an 80 foot climb, not 8 feet:

     The golf players at Greenwich, Conn., have been up in arms to do away with the 80-foot hole called the "Alps" on the new golf course.  They finally succeeded in their appeal, for the Greenwich Country Club officers held a meeting recently and decided to have the "Alps" removed.
     It took some time to have the club take action, for the hole cost exactly $10,000 to construct and it was the most difficult hole of any golf course in the country.  The millionaires had their way, however, and now they are happy.


     Who designed this iteration of the Greenwich Country Club?  Was it then redone by Seth Raynor later?  Are there any pictures around of this "Alps" hole?

[TEPaul]

Joe:

If the point of posting this article about an early Alps hole over here has something to do with Merion or its original Alps hole, at the time Wilson and his committee at Merion set about designing Merion East there were a number of courses on this side that had a hole on their course called "Alps." It looks to me like the first one over here was probably at Myopia around 1898.

[Mike_Cirba]

Fellows,

Please scroll down to the lower left of this picture.   Architect was Willie Dunn and opened in 1895..

[Joe Bausch]

I don't understand your last post Mike.  You don't mean to say the Ardsley Casino Club links was the former name of the Greenwich CC, do you?  I know a previous name of Greenwich CC was Fairfield County Golf Club.

Tom:  the main point of this thread was that a handful of members were able to get something dramatic changed at a course.  And I wonder just how often this has occurred and, still happens currently?

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Good question. Apparently a number of "Alps" holes and Alps features didn't make it through that all important "Test of Time" kinda thing! 

Basically, Myopia lost the Alps feature on their "Alps" hole, obviously Merion East lost its Alps hole and even PV sort of lost Crump's version of a proposed Alps carry feature on #7. Well, they didn't exactly lose the latter, as its still sort of there. What they lost was Crump who was right in the midst of making it a pretty prominent feature and strategy on #7 when he died suddenly.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,
There is 100' of elevation change at GCC, so the 80' number is quite possible.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Joe,
I think Mike was suggesting that the Alps hole  at the Ardsley Casino Links pre-dated the Alps hole at Myopia by some 3 years.

Thankfully the quality and excitement of Alps holes stood the test of time, the concept is even being used today. I think the hidden dangers and the anticipation of seeing how well you judged your blind approach shot keeps them in favor.

C&W says Raynor, Ross and RTJ at Greenwich.   

[TEPaul]

"Joe,
I think Mike was suggesting that the Alps hole  at the Ardsley Casino Links pre-dated the Alps hole at Myopia by some 3 years."


JimK:

That's very interesting. I think I got that impression only this year just doing some reading of the old periodicals but I didn't quite make the connection with Ardsley and it Alps as perhaps being the first over here with that name and feature. That sounds like the original GB interpretation over here would've been Dunn then, right?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
It seems that way, if the hole in question at ACL was 'truly' an Alps.

[Tom MacWood]

I don't know who created the Alps at Greenwich, but I have recently discovered Lawrence Van Etten redesigned the course in 1910 with HH Barker's input. CBM was called in 1916, and I believe some others were involved afterward.

[Tim Gerrish]

It is the least "Raynor course" I have ever seen.  The names escape me, but there were a couple good members who may have spearheaded the design.  Did Raynor just do a route plan???

As for an Alps, the current 9th or 10th holes have tremendous elevation changes... uphill that could have set up for such a scheme.  There are no other existing land forms that speak alps.

[Alex Lagowitz]

It is the least "Raynor course" I have ever seen.  The names escape me, but there were a couple good members who may have spearheaded the design.  Did Raynor just do a route plan???

As for an Alps, the current 9th or 10th holes have tremendous elevation changes... uphill that could have set up for such a scheme.  There are no other existing land forms that speak alps.

It was very solid raynor course when built.  Over the years, it has lost a lot, including a biarriz (now tennis courts or pool i think)

[brad_miller]

There was a wonderful plan to restore/reinterpret this course (much like Sleepy Hollow) from one of this sites favorite sons, who also seems to be a lot smarter than he was six months ago... sorry to say there where a few at the club who knew better... now known as Royal Greenwich...

[Michael J. Moss]

I was under the impression that Gil and George were consulting at Greenwich CC. They could bring back some pizzazz to a tired track.

Sunningdale CC (Scarsdale, NY) decommissioned their Raynor designed Alps hole back in 1924 or 25. The Mandarins were shocked, shocked that the second shot was actually blind!

Mike DeVries did a wonderful job restoring the Alps strategy a few years ago. It's really cool! Rising fairway to a green down in a hollow.

[Tom MacWood]

Greenwich is a Raynor course?

What exactly did Raynor do at Greenwich, and when?

[Jeff Loh]

Gil was nixed a couple of years ago........the powers that be wanted to plant more flowers..........and trees

[Tom MacWood]

It is the least "Raynor course" I have ever seen.  The names escape me, but there were a couple good members who may have spearheaded the design.  Did Raynor just do a route plan???

As for an Alps, the current 9th or 10th holes have tremendous elevation changes... uphill that could have set up for such a scheme.  There are no other existing land forms that speak alps.

I'm not sure what Raynor did, if anything. The club was originally called Fairfield County GC, and it was a nine hole course. In 1908 the course was expanded to eighteen. I have not found any mention of who did this work; it may have been the golf committee.

In 1909 the club changed their name to Greenwich CC. In 1910 it was announced they added some new land, and were going to redesign the course - a pretty drastic move considering they just redesigned the course a year or two earlier. Van Etten was in charge of the redesign with the imput of HH Barker. They kept eight of the original holes, redesigned those holes (one of which must have been the Alps), and added ten completely new holes. The map of the course circa 1915 looks pretty much like the routing today with a few changes ( two new holes at the far end of the property).

I've seen a couple of reports from 1916 that stated CBM had been called in to critique the course and make suggestions to improve it. Later that year John Reid (formerly of Atlantic City and Philmont), Macdonald Smith and Topping (a member and a well-respected amateur) were adding some new bunkers.

I've not found anything to suggest Raynor, or CBM, actually made any changes, although an old aerial does show there was a Redan.

[Alex Lagowitz]

It is the least "Raynor course" I have ever seen.  The names escape me, but there were a couple good members who may have spearheaded the design.  Did Raynor just do a route plan???

As for an Alps, the current 9th or 10th holes have tremendous elevation changes... uphill that could have set up for such a scheme.  There are no other existing land forms that speak alps.

I'm not sure what Raynor did, if anything. The club was originally called Fairfield County GC, and it was a nine hole course. In 1908 the course was expanded to eighteen. I have not found any mention of who did this work; it may have been the golf committee.

In 1909 the club changed their name to Greenwich CC. In 1910 it was announced they added some new land, and were going to redesign the course - a pretty drastic move considering they just redesigned the course a year or two earlier. Van Etten was in charge of the redesign with the imput of HH Barker. They kept eight of the original holes, redesigned those holes (one of which must have been the Alps), and added ten completely new holes. The map of the course circa 1915 looks pretty much like the routing today with a few changes ( two new holes at the far end of the property).

I've seen a couple of reports from 1916 that stated CBM had been called in to critique the course and make suggestions to improve it. Later that year John Reid (formerly of Atlantic City and Philmont), Macdonald Smith and Topping (a member and a well-respected amateur) were adding some new bunkers.

I've not found anything to suggest Raynor, or CBM, actually made any changes, although an old aerial does show there was a Redan.

Tom,

I have talked to their head pro who confirmed it used to be a raynor course.  In an old aerial photograph I have, their is clearly a biarritz as well as many other template holes.  There originally was a course there and Raynor in 1915-16 redesigned the course completely.  This is very common knowledge, I am surprised you didn't know that. 

[Alex Lagowitz]

If i remember correctly, Raynor's course was destroyed only years later by Donald Ross, whose course mostly resembles the current course. 

[Tom MacWood]

Here is link to Colin Sheehan's Connecticut aerials, and I'm not sure I see a Biarritz:

http://picasaweb.google.com/colinsheehan/GolfCourseAerials?feat=directlink

This is the course 3/1915, courtesy Joe B.:

[Alex Lagowitz]

Tom,


http://cslib.cdmhost.com/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4005coll10/id/6836

this is in 1934, where the upper most hole is a par3 biarritz.  

I am editing this post because after viewing that routing and the date, I believe that is basically Raynor's plan.  See hole 12 for Biarritz location and hole 2 for reverse redan.  Hole 10 is short and hole 5 (as Jim pointed out) is alps.

[Alex Lagowitz]

You can also see a reverse redan, the drop-shot Short 10th hole, a punchbowl, and a few other raynor-esque holes.
This was also almost 20 years post-Raynor so some of the bunkering was altered but the routing I beleive is intact./

[Jim_Kennedy]

The article from which the photo was taken:

http://tinyurl.com/9ny9fj5

Sounds like the only described hole that 'fits' for an Alps was #5.

"Number five is a good two shot hole under ordinary conditions. The green is back of the hill which has to be carried on the second shot. Only the top of the flag is visible. The ground slopes away on the right of the green and there is a trap on the left."

[Alex Lagowitz]

Per George Bahto in another thread:

George_Bahto:
JDoyle:  Greenwich was designed by Seth Raynor in 1914-1915 according to the info I have. It was one of the first three courses Raynor began the first year he went out on his own at the (on-going) urging of his mentor C B Mac.
 - this during the construction of the Lido project
It was however not the first one completed.

[Tom MacWood]

Alex
You may be right about the 12th. That hole does look a little bit like a Biarritz...though the bunkering is not exactly prototypical. It is also steeply uphill, and though my experience is somewhat limited, I've not known Raynor to do that. Are there other Biarritz that are uphill?

In George's book he lists Greenwich as a redesign in 1915-16. If that is the case its very unlikely that 4/1915 map/routing is Raynor's.

C&W lists Greenwich as an original Raynor design, but doesn't give a year. They claim Robert White redesigned two holes in 1925, and those two newer holes at the far end of the property look to be in a different style. They claim Ross redesigned the course in 1946, and I'm not sure about that. Ross had been, more or less, retired for over decade in 1946, and with the war I can't imagine anything major taking place. Then we have two newspaper reports from early 1916, that Greenwich has just asked CBM to critique their course. And then the newspaper report from the latter part of 1916 that John Reid, Henry Topping, et al., are tweaking the course by adding approximately forty new bunkers.

Who did what and when is still up in the air.

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