[Pete Lavallee]

My first thought when I read this thread was for a hole listed at 148 yards they were hitting 8 & 9 irons yesterday. Everyone knows from reading Gold Digest that they hit PW from 150, so the hole either plays significantly longer or is forcing them to invent a shot. Either way, awefully god stuff in my book.

[Adam Clayman]

No. But I also don't think there is enough attention being paid to what makes a course great other than the challenge of distance. Making every hole longer on a course will surely destroy the charm, character and personality because it places the emphasis on how to make each and every hole as long as it can be without regard to the whole rhythm and flow thing that the original architect likely envisioned.

Joe

It also ignores the other aspects of the game. Short, putting and mental.

[Jon Heise]

They could put up some tall trees around the perimeter to nullify the wind a bit, Im sure theyve got the property behind the green, so they could cut some of the bush back and make the green deeper, then add like 30 yards.  It'd be good to see them hit 5-6 irons in...






heheh

[JohnV]

When I was home at lunch today, the Golf Channel showed that #12 was playing as the third toughest hole today (behind 11 and 10).  No need to toughen it up in my opinion.

[Dan Herrmann]

isnt it about the same length as it was 30 years ago?  dont they have room to push back the tee?  is so, why shouldnt they, since players hit it SO MUCH farther than than before

Never.

[David Stamm]

isnt it about the same length as it was 30 years ago?  dont they have room to push back the tee?  is so, why shouldnt they, since players hit it SO MUCH farther than than before

What about the examination of someones short irons? Should 7 at Pebble be lengthened? 15 at CPC? No! Asking the players to be laser precise with thier short irons/wedges is just as important as any other club in their bag. Has 12 been rendered obsolete? Let's ask the guys that have blown their chances at the green jacket on that hole in the last decade alone.

[Mike Policano]

Actually the 12th at The National is a poster child that more length is not always required.  The 12th plays downhill to a very narrow green in a part of the course that gets swirling winds.  It makes it very difficult to judge, even with a 9 iron.

Another example of such a par 3 is the 13th at Pine Tree.  It is also short and very narrow. It is very well bunkered and exposed to the wind.

And in this year's edition of the tournament, it is playing tougher than one might think for such a short hole.

Cheers, Mike

[David Stamm]

For today, the 12 tied w/ the 11th for the toughest hole today w/ a 3.34 stroke average. End of conversation.

[J_ Crisham]

David,       Also keep in mind that the pin was arguably in the easiest position on the left side with the tees up. 140 yds total to the pin. If this was lengthened to 170-200 yds it might be unhittable. The 4 tournaments that I have sat on the 12th tee were amazing . The indecision of the world's best players is humbling. Would never want to see this hole changed one bit.   Jack

[Tim Bert]

I'd like to see them lengthen it to about 190, tighten it up with some trees lining each side, and cut a channel so the creek completely surrounds the green.   

[J_ Crisham]

Tim,   You might see guys lay up for the 1st time ever on a par 3!
                                                  Jack

[Tim Bert]

Tim,   You might see guys lay up for the 1st time ever on a par 3!
                                                  Jack

Jack - I don't have the skills that some others possess when it comes to marking up these photos, but roughly speaking I am thinking of something like this...

Current


Proposed Changes

[Steve Lang]

  another small tree in the center of the fronting trap too..

[mike_beene]

At what distance would a significant number of pros decide to lay up?

[Kalen Braley]

Tim B,

That looks totally awesome, I'm completely in favor of it!!!

I'm putting together an email as we speak to send off to Mr. Fazio...hopefully they can have this in place by next year.

[Tim Bert]

Tim B,

That looks totally awesome, I'm completely in favor of it!!!

I'm putting together an email as we speak to send off to Mr. Fazio...hopefully they can have this in place by next year.

Thanks Kalen - consider that design a response on your "king for a year" thread as well.  I've got a few other ideas that I think could eliminate under par scores as well.  Perhaps I'll share them with the group if I get some time.

[Will MacEwen]

The nice thing about 12 currently is that birdie is very much in play, as is bogey.  To me, that has always been the hallmark of ANGC - lots of risk + lots of reward =swings in scoring and excitement. 

Part of the intrigue of 12, like 17 at TPC, is that it is just a 9 iron or thereabouts.

[Doug Siebert]

I think today's results ought to disabuse anyone of the notion that 12 needs to be lengthened.

I didn't watch much of the tournament today but when I flipped over for a moment they said that due to the wind in the player's face making club selection difficult that some players had ended up FORTY YARDS short of the pin.  They said that was in the middle of the water, I'd think that was short of the water so maybe they were exaggerating, but even in the middle of the water is a pretty bad shot for a top pro!

This is exactly the type of hole ANGC needs, to test those players who have some shotmaking skills versus those who select clubs based on distance, and add/subtract yards based on the wind and other factors.  If they can't hit a low shot under the trees then they deserve whatever happens to them on the windy days.

Sure, its an easy hole when there's no wind, but if that's how the merit of golf holes are determined these days I guess we may as well retire TOC, since there are precious few holes that can stand up to the modern game when there's "nae wind"...

Despite what some revisionist historians wish to believe, the 12th has always been pretty easy for pros on the days when there's no wind like on Thursday.  Don't you guys remember that hole business they used to talk about looking at not the flag on the 12th but two other flags nearby and based on when one goes limp that's when you hit.  Dunno if that's still the way to play that hole, but the effect of the wind on the 12th is certainly nothing new.  If it played 190 yards instead of 150 it might be less of a test of skill since it'd be easier to keep the ball under the tree line!

[Brian Phillips]

Paul Thomas,

Please do not ever, ever volunteer to serve on your course committee.  You are a danger to all fun courses in the world.

[Cristian]

isnt it about the same length as it was 30 years ago?  dont they have room to push back the tee?  is so, why shouldnt they, since players hit it SO MUCH farther than than before

Are you serious?

absolutely!

Then you are officially nuts. I hate the changes there, but at least they have some variety with the par 3s. Instead you want to make them all 200+ yards I am assuming? Sounds like a great fun course you are designing. Good luck with it.

As #12 has shown in the past, it doesn't matter about length with the swirling winds.

my wife will probably agree with your characterization of me Jim

not 200 yds, 170ish....

and since those trees have grown in the last 40 years, wouldn't that have lessened the impact of the wind since the hole is more sheltered now?

The trees shelter the hole on ground level, but up in the air the wind is still very much there. That makes the wind on the hole so hard to judge; effectively, if there is wind therefore the hole is playing harder than 50-60 years ago, and thus needs no lengthening.

[Jeff_Brauer]

You are also forgetting the all important need for bleachers behind that hole. Many people view there since they can also see No. 11

[Adam Clayman]

If this thread proves anything, it proves anyone can build a hard golf course.

[J_ Crisham]

Perhaps luxury skyboxes behind the green on 12 sponsored by AIG!
                                                    Jack

[J_ Crisham]

If this thread proves anything, it proves anyone can build a hard golf course.

Adam,  Are you suggesting Tim Bert is just anyone?
                                                                    Jack

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