[John_Cullum]

Why don't they just restore the hole and add 25 yards?

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Why?   What have they changed?

I must admit I haven't been able to keep up with this latest round of NipTuck.

[George Pazin]

It might be helpful of someone posted a timeline of changes to the hole.

Me, I'd rather see them return it to the 97 hole, lose the speed bumps (which were a later add-on, if I'm not mistaken) and leave it alone.

[Dave_Miller]

Why don't they just restore the hole and add 25 yards?

John:
What did they do other than add length.
Best
Dave

[John_Cullum]

Trees on the right have been added and some contour was flattened

[George Pazin]

I believe there are more encroaching trees on the left as well. They may have shifted the tee a little as well.

[Kalen Braley]

I think John was asking why don't they just add some length.  This aerial shows they have no place to go due to the current 10th green.  Now if they restored the original 10th green, then they could shove that tee further back with a little earth moving. 

The only other option I see is moving it further back by putting the tee behind the 10th green and requiring the players to hit a draw off the tee.

[John_Cullum]

You can see some diagrams on the Options thread, pages 2 and 3.

There is plenty of room to add length without interfering with 10, 11 or 14. You just need to think outside the box.

[PThomas]

all i remember is that Tiger was hitting , i think , PW into that green

were most others hitting shortish irons, lets say 6 or less, into it?  if so then something needed to be done

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Are you talking about moving 15 green back and to the right?  Because as the aerial shows, there is only option in relocating the tee box for additional length.

[Scott Warren]

Are there not post-1997 trees in the left of the fairway narrowing the second shot "chute"?

[John_Cullum]

John,

Are you talking about moving 15 green back and to the right?  Because as the aerial shows, there is only option in relocating the tee box for additional length.

Bingo.

This is Augusta National we're talking about. No project is too big in scope or expense

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

There was NOTHING broken with the previous version of the 15th -- in 1997.

When I see the pic that's presented I just want to scream out. The narrow fairways have done what Brad Klein's recent article in Golfweek stated so well. The trees on the right -- to a lesser degree on the left -- have created a forced bottleneck that makes the "safe" play the only prudent thing to do in most instances.

Hence --the thrill of "going for it" is a lost dimension.

George, the speed bumps were there to help those who DON'T hit the ball a long ways -- giving them an added dimension when combatting the stronger guys who could just as easily get there without them.

I also get a charge when people say -- well, you had Tiger hitting PW into the hole. Keep in mind, Nicklaus hit an 8-iron in '65 during his record play that year and in terms of rough lofts the 8-iron of that era is a PW for this era. Also, just because one guy does something -- albeit not everytime I might add -- that doesn't mean you abort the hole. This is the same inane thing that Hootie and crew did when the former Chairman observed Lefty hitting a PW into #11 after a 350+ yard tee shot.

Just because one guy does it -- doesn't mean the core elements of the hole have to be ALTERED COMPLETELY.

Another thing -- when you add length you only then eliminate many of the mid-range hitters for a "go to" option. Keep the hole at 500 yards -- my God, the 13th at one time was listed at 465 yards and it still reared its head at certain key moments.

Check out the stats over the last few years -- I and many other fans are getting tired of that "edge of your seat" wedge shot from 90-100 yards.

The roars of eagles is less and less -- ditto the birdie percentages.

[JESII]

You'd prefer the "edge of your seat 9-iron from 155?

[George Pazin]

George, the speed bumps were there to help those who DON'T hit the ball a long ways -- giving them an added dimension when combatting the stronger guys who could just as easily get there without them.

Matt, I mostly agree with you, but I would swear that the speed bumps were added originally to rein in the longer hitters, who then eventually became long enough to use them to catapult the ball. I don't believe the intent was ever to help out the shorter hitters.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

I think its a bit ironic to talk about edge of your seat 90-100 yard wedge shots on this hole, because everything I've read and seen would indicate its actually a tough shot from that distance based on the downhill nature of the fairway as it approaches the pond.  In fact many have said they would prefer to hit the longer iron in from further out because its often a much flatter lie and there is room to bail out long.

So if someone near the lead on Sunday had to layup on 15, I think I would be on the edge of my seat to see if they execute that delicate approach shot correctly.

[Anthony Butler]

You'd prefer the "edge of your seat 9-iron from 155?

The original concept of both 13 and 15 at Augusta was 'risk/reward'. When people are hitting 8 iron to pitching wedge into a par 5, the relationship between those two elements has gotten out of whack.

ANGC could have easily added 25 yds to the hole and recontoured the 15th fairway to take the 'speed slot' out, thus making the second shot a 4-6 iron after a great drive. That seems appropriate for the green shape and creates a some doubt in the mind of anyone who hasn't hit it 325 off the 15th tee.

[JESII]

Anthony,

I would agree, and I think a good drive by an average to slightly above average length player will yield a 4 - 6 iron today...as I said before, missing the ideal line by 50 yards should carry a penalty, and I don't think #15 had it when they have a 5 iron in hand...

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

One other thing -- for those who have not been at Augusta -- the lengthening of the hole is inane because of the reasons previously mentioned but also because the prevailing westerly winds are often in one's face -- ditto the setting sun.

Jim S:

You must have missed what I wrote.

How MANY guys are hitting 9-irons for their 2nd shots ?

Please knock yourself out and show me and others the entire list that is often erroneously mentioned here and elsewhere.

The club had a heart attack when Tiger -- that's the singular Tiger -- hit PW into the hole. Big freakin deal. One guy! When Jack hit a comparable lofted club (8-iron) into the hole you didn't see Jones & Roberts say it was time to create the now seem bowling alley / jungle you see now!

Hey Jim -- your right -- I always love the pitch out from the trees to the fairway shot. Boy, that really makes me want to see that type of golf.

George P:

The original intent was as you mentioned -- however, the new equipment provided a mechanism for those who are mid-to-short hitters to get there. Do you really believe players like Mize, Beck, Pavin, Langer, et al -- would even consider going for the green if they didn't have at least a 50/50 shot in going for it.

Kalen:

I never said the 90-100 shot was EASY. Try to keep this in mind people like Roberts knew The Masters was an entertainment vehicle -- he made sure holes like #13 and #15 did exactly that.

The "new" 15th is a snore. Smart pros will not opt for the gamble when the risk is far beyond what the reward provides.

Check out the tapes from previous Masters -- watching Nicklaus land his 2nd in '86 during the final round and then drain the eagle is REAL GOAL ENTERTAINMENT. Ditto when Seve plunked his ball but knew he NEEDED to go for it. I can list numerous other situatons of this type.

Anthony Butler:

You mentioned "when people" are hitting PW and 8-irons into the hole in question. Just list for me the yellow pages of players who did that. I'll say this again for the hard of hearing -- when you have a player of immense length like the Bear in his prime hitting 8-iron and a young buck like Tger hitting PW that doesn't mean to say THAT EVERYONE is doing likewise.

Let's be clear shall we. Hootie and the Gang that could not shoot straight decided to play US Open version at Augusta. We have that event in June now. The Masters was meant to entice -- reward the bold play and penalize those who fail to execute. The key is ENTICE -- that's not the case now.

The issue isn't trying to make the hole longer for Tiger and Phil -- it's trying to entice the mid-to-short hitters to go for it. There is no compelling reason to do that now. Got it.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

John,

Are you talking about moving 15 green back and to the right?  Because as the aerial shows, there is only option in relocating the tee box for additional length.

Bingo.

This is Augusta National we're talking about. No project is too big in scope or expense

That's HERESY.

Some of the trees on the right side of the fairway have become invasive and should be removed.

Don't EVER, EVER, EVER touch the 15th green.

[John_Cullum]

Hell Pat, they could probably figure out how to do it without touching it, but why not replicate it 25 yards back. Of course you move the pond back too. The only impediments are those three tall pines, but it won't be the end of the world to lose them for a few years. They can replant some pretty good size ones and they'll be about the same in just a few years.

If you have to shift 16 some, go ahead and do that too.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Hell Pat, they could probably figure out how to do it without touching it, but why not replicate it 25 yards back. Of course you move the pond back too. The only impediments are those three tall pines, but it won't be the end of the world to lose them for a few years. They can replant some pretty good size ones and they'll be about the same in just a few years.

If you have to shift 16 some, go ahead and do that too.

John Cullum,

Some deranged golf fan has broken into your computer and is posting under your name.

[Wade Whitehead]

I have absolutely no statistical evidence to back this up, but the changes to 15 seem to produce both fewer threes and fewer sevens.  People miss the potential for both.

WW

[JESII]

I saw a pretty good number of players go at #15 with woods and rescue clubs and even from behind the trees on the left with a big swinging hook...isn't that what we would want to see?

[Matthew Rose]

I recall as recently as 1994 or 95, there were a ton of high numbers made in the first round. I think there was a 10, a couple of 9s, three or four 8s, and a whole bunch of 7s. This was when it was still 500 yards and still as wide as a driving range.

Obviously it was enough of a challenge.

I would have left it exactly as it was but just added 20 yards or so. At 520 it'd still be reachable for most of the field.

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