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Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2009, 01:27:43 PM »

... don't hold your breath for Tiger Woods to get involved, as nice as that might be.



Why wouldn't he? Seems like a good cause for his TW Foundation.  I don't see a negative.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tom Huckaby

Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2009, 01:32:36 PM »

... don't hold your breath for Tiger Woods to get involved, as nice as that might be.



Why wouldn't he? Seems like a good cause for his TW Foundation.  I don't see a negative.

I too see no negative.

I just also haven't heard of him getting involved in many local causes, either personally or through the foundation.  Have you?

I hope I am wrong as of course his weight would be mighty.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2009, 01:37:34 PM »
To contact the Tiger Woods Foundation . . .

 http://www.tigerwoodsfoundation.org/contact_us.php

A great opportunity for Tiger, his cause, his adoring kids, the First Tee program and the idea of changing the image that golf courses have on the environment.







(Please pardon my Moe Norman impersonation.)
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tom Huckaby

Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2009, 02:11:13 PM »
Slag (or should I say Moe):

I trust you have contacted them, as I have?

I just shall not hold my breath for a positive response.  Are you?


Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2009, 02:27:37 PM »
Tom, yes, I have also. And I figure that the more folks that do contact them, the better chance that the Foundation will take notice.



"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"  Edmund Burke
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tom Huckaby

Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2009, 02:35:22 PM »
Slag:

Well done.  Between you and me, the chances went from 0% to some tiny bit above that, so of course that is a good thing.

Being cynical is not my style, I hope you understand.  However, if you lived anywhere near San Francisco and watched the workings of that city government, well...I think you'd get the cynicsm.







Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2009, 04:32:35 PM »


He has strong ties to the Bay Area, he graduated, oops, attended Stanford University ...

He loves Pebble Beach and plays the ATT every year, oops, when it hoses the US Open ...

He likes a good fight and would love to combat the politicos of SF, oops, no he doesn't fight political battles ...


Tiger's Foundation supporting Sharp Park is fantastic.  It will never happen, but go ahead and run with it ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2009, 04:55:31 PM »
Like I said earlier the Presidents Cup is coming to SF and will bring a whole lot of publicity. If someone can get the golf press locked on to this it might change the tide.
Where is Sandy Tatum on this? He seems to have a big influence on SF golf matters.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2009, 05:01:50 PM »
Mr. Tatum has taken a distant position after receiving undue pressure from the unions when it came out that privatization of some elements of the operations and maintenance may be a good direction. That is what I heard.

I had a good meeting with Mr. Tatum before the infamous NGF study of a few years ago. I believe the backlash (mainly from unions) pretty much stifled his leadership in this (SF golf as a whole) cause. Too bad as he was a champion of the cause.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2009, 09:46:08 PM »
I've got my ''incognito'' 7 ft. by 5 ft. sign ready for the President's Cup.

Slogan says:  Save Sharp Park Now!!!

Then I will be promptly shackled, bound and thrown to the bottom of the Bay for causing a red level on the Dept. of Homeland Security scale ...
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Emmy

Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2009, 02:41:14 PM »
Sounds like a good project for the California Alliance for Golf (CAG). The alliance, which consists of representatives from every major golf organization throughout the state, is a supporter of public golf and understands the value of having courses like Sharp Park within the community.

While I can't speak for the alliance, I will share this thread with Ted Horton, CGCS, (President of CAG) and hopefully he'll see a reason to be involved, too.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2009, 02:59:50 PM »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2009, 03:21:45 PM »
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 03:23:29 PM by Patrick Kiser »
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2009, 08:45:04 PM »
I believe our estimate to right a majority of the wrongs at Sharp was in the $4-5 million range for golf course areas, not including the clubhouse. I am confident that in today's marketplace, you would be able to do a lot with even $3-4 million.

$5 million at Sharp Park is a drop in the bucket.  It may be a way to under bid everyone and get a job but it doesn't do the job right.

As an example, I saw this article today:

The renovated Moody Gardens Golf Course had two openings in 2008. The former Galveston Municipal opened June 5 after a $16 million renovation by Jacobsen Hardy Golf Course Design. The elevation of the course was increased about five feet, and work was done on the green complexes, irrigation, drainage and cart paths. The clubhouse was fully renovated. Paspalum, a salt-tolerant variety of grass, replaced Bermuda throughout the course.

My guess is that Sharp needs $5 million in irrigation and drainage alone.


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2009, 09:11:03 PM »
Joel — What makes you al all-of-the-sudden expert on Sharp Park? Did you spend several days studying the agronomics, conditions or possibilities? I am really surprised at your off-the-cuff, somewhat caustic reply. I would really be interested in your professional orientation to this golf course.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 09:13:35 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2009, 12:33:27 AM »
Did you spend several days studying the agronomics, conditions or possibilities?

So spending several days on this site makes you an expert?

I've lived here 50 years and spent more time in the urinal at Sharp then you've spent time on this course.

I'm just using common sense.  If Harding Park spent $20 million, California Golf Club $15 million and the above example in Texas spent $16 million, how can you possibly come up with a low ball number of $5 million on an ocean front golf course built by Mackenzie and do something faithful?

This is not Peacock Gap.  This is an architectural masterpiece that could define your career.  There is an old saying, do it right or don't do it at all and $5 million is an injustice to you and Mackenzie.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2009, 05:24:23 AM »
OK, now I understand. Thanks.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2009, 01:21:57 PM »
Joel,

Not to defend Forrest here, but was his $5MM estimate about restoring SP to original MacKenzie condition?  ???

I certainly didn't think so.

Doing what you're suggesting is not only next to impossible, but it indeed would cost a fortune ... and no one will recover the investment.

Then it will wash away once again with a good solid winter storm.  :'(

I think the most that can be hoped for is a reasonable refurbishment with the idea of keeping to MacKenzie ideals ... if that's even possible.  ;)


Did you spend several days studying the agronomics, conditions or possibilities?

So spending several days on this site makes you an expert?

I've lived here 50 years and spent more time in the urinal at Sharp then you've spent time on this course.

I'm just using common sense.  If Harding Park spent $20 million, California Golf Club $15 million and the above example in Texas spent $16 million, how can you possibly come up with a low ball number of $5 million on an ocean front golf course built by Mackenzie and do something faithful?

This is not Peacock Gap.  This is an architectural masterpiece that could define your career.  There is an old saying, do it right or don't do it at all and $5 million is an injustice to you and Mackenzie.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2009, 03:04:43 PM »
Defense is always nice, but in this case probably unnecessary. I cannot pinpoint where Joel is coming from, but I can certainly detect the essence of a rude post that seems to belittle what I do for a living. That's sad because it is this type of treatment that I believe drives away otherwise interesting participants here on GCA, especially other professional golf course architects.

With few exceptions, such posts are not called for, even on the notorious GCA.  :-\

Our 2006 work with the SF City golf courses included work to develop a "warranted investment" approach to Sharp and the numerous issues there. The probable costs to make improvements (correcting as many wrongs as practical within the "warranted investment") were based on evaluations, take-offs and the balance of restoring as much MacKenzie feel as possible given the many wholesale changes incurred through the history of the course. Many good people contributed, including analysts, planners, environmental consultants and our office. It was not prepared in a vacuum ... nor standing at the urinal.  ;D 

Despite the comment by Joel that somehow my estimate and recent remarks are geared to land the work, that is not only untrue, but it also crosses the border to rudeness. I am in agreement that the assignment at Sharp has nothing to do with our work at Peacock Gap, which is not only obvious, but it strikes again as a comment uncalled for.

While it might be terrific to infuse millions upon millions of dollars to Sharp and other SF courses — the reality is that the work, if ever facilitated, will need to be very efficient and completely unlike the investment in Harding (a site with extreme site issues, 27 holes and the champagne taste of the PGA tour)...and it will need to be far different from the costly re-dos we have seen in the past few decades, as that level of investment simply does not make sense for Sharp if it is to remain a public, affordable golf course. Unless a lottery winner decides to hand over a load of cash, the investment needs to be carefully controlled, metered and creative. It might also unfold over time, which is one reason why the course has becomes so awful — there has been all but zip in capital improvements, no master planning and no long range vision.

I stand by everything I've posted about Sharp. And, I believe it could be a great golf experience even with an investment considerably less than $5 million.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2009, 04:32:57 PM »
I am very much in agreement with Forrest R. and Patrick K. on this.

In the abstract, the notion of restoring Sharp Park approximate to its original Mackenzie design sounds like a wonderful idea. As a practical matter, based on today's financial and political realities, that notion has no chance of succeeding.

Aside from resolving the environmental issues mandated by Federal law, Sharp Park needs the work necessary to turn it into a well maintained, functioning golf course, where people can play for under $40 a round on weekdays and $60 on weekends.

If Sharp Park could be presented in a manner and condition similar to Rooster Run in Petaluma or the Metropolitan GL in Oakland (2 of the better muni courses in the Bay Area), I would be delighted.   

   

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2009, 07:51:16 PM »
 "Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably will not themselves be realized."
Daniel Burnham

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2009, 05:15:16 PM »
I've got my ''incognito'' 7 ft. by 5 ft. sign ready for the President's Cup.

Slogan says:  Save Sharp Park Now!!!

Then I will be promptly shackled, bound and thrown to the bottom of the Bay for causing a red level on the Dept. of Homeland Security scale ...

Make sure you add Golf Course to that slogan
"Save Sharp Park Golf Course Now"
or they will think you are one of the tree huggers trying to shut down the course! :o
If you make up T-shirts, I will take a 4X. Can't miss me in a crowd.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2009, 10:34:10 PM »
Go to this link, type in Pacifica, CA on the left, find the course and then switch to 1946. Even after the flood the course looked good!




http://www.historicaerials.com/Default.aspx
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2009, 10:36:42 PM »
If the goal is to "Save Sharp Park" then I have a hard time believing that adding a $5M or $10 or $20M price tag to the is the way to get it done politically, economically or any other 'ically.  Looking at private clubs and the incredibly efficient City of San Francisco are also poor barometers of what is normal - a $10 or $20 million dollar investment is ALWAYS a massive waste of money on a golf course.  Municipalities are hemorraging money, that's why this conversation is even taking place.  Why make it worse with a big price tag?

It seems painfully obvious to me that step one is to get the city out and Pacifica in.  Step two is to stop losing money, start making money and shut everyone the hell up.  Then step THREE is make it nicer, whatever that is.  Making money here with any thing with grass is a no-brainer.   I'll be glad to lend my help if anyone wants it.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sharp Park Saga Continues
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2009, 11:07:07 PM »
If the goal is to "Save Sharp Park" then I have a hard time believing that adding a $5M or $10 or $20M price tag to the is the way to get it done politically, economically or any other 'ically.  Looking at private clubs and the incredibly efficient City of San Francisco are also poor barometers of what is normal - a $10 or $20 million dollar investment is ALWAYS a massive waste of money on a golf course.  Municipalities are hemorraging money, that's why this conversation is even taking place.  Why make it worse with a big price tag?

It seems painfully obvious to me that step one is to get the city out and Pacifica in.  Step two is to stop losing money, start making money and shut everyone the hell up.  Then step THREE is make it nicer, whatever that is.  Making money here with any thing with grass is a no-brainer.   I'll be glad to lend my help if anyone wants it.

I agree 100% that the City of Pacifica can run this and make money.  The City of San Francisco should be willing to turn it over gratis to get out of the money loser situation.

Has anyone talked to anyone in authority in Pacifica?