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Mark_Rowlinson

Trent Jones family traits
« on: April 07, 2009, 11:01:52 AM »
My experience of Trent Jones family courses is limited to four in England (Stockley Park and Moor Allerton [RTJ Snr], The Wisley [RTJ Jnr] and The Oxfordshire [Rees Jones]) and one on Wales (Celtic Manor, which seems to be a bit of a father-and-son job), too limited to form any opinion on common family architectural traits or to discern any stylistic differences. What similarities do they share and what are their differences?

Ronald Montesano

Re: Trent Jones family traits
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2009, 05:03:51 PM »
Does this include adopted son Roger Rulewich, too?
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Mike Sweeney

Re: Trent Jones family traits
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2009, 08:16:16 PM »
Mark,

Rather than broad brush a portfolio, I will attempt to answer with three courses by each on similar locations:

Fox Hill CC, RTJ/Associate? - Located next to Friars Head on Long Island, but never touching Long Island Sound due to condos, it is a a pretty good RTJ. It has the classic Par 5's with a risk/reward over water for the second shot to the green. Probably no bad holes on the course, but no great ones and they tend to seem similar with too many 4's in the 380-410 range. None of the Rees mounding, none of the Bobby shaping which could have been a function of budget when it was built in an area that is off the beaten tract. It is a good golf course and may be the definition of a Doak 5.

Long Island National, BobbyJones/Don Knott - Deep, deep in the archives, John Morrisett gave a wonderful review of the course. It is more inland in Riverhead and was built on a flattish potato farm. It has some really good moments. Bobby pushed a bunch of dirt to create interest in a variety of terrain that features roughly 6 lake, 6 woods, 6 farms holes. I like the course despite some awkward holes/shots. Doak 5.5 to 6.

Atlantic, Rees - I have always liked this course. The mounding just does not bother me like others here. The mounding could be less in number. The bunkers have been upgraded since opening but I always though the routing of the course through a potato farm with a number of environmental restrictions was very good. Doak 7

Some common themes:

* They all have man-made lakes that come into play.
* They all have nice greens, but I can't say one green sticks in my memory and I have played all three a number of times.
* No short threes, no (very) short fours.

Ronald Montesano

Re: Trent Jones family traits
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2009, 08:41:47 PM »
I'll look at some upstate New York/southern Ontario courses for a bit of input.  All distances are from the tips, as short par threes and short par fours should be short from all tee decks, in my opinion.

RTJ Senior designed Crag Burn and Ransom Oaks (now called Glen Oak) near Buffalo.  Crag Burn has more of a heathland feel than a links (although many mistakenly say it has a links feel.)  Sand flashes up in the faces of the multi-digited bunkers.  There are mostly medium to long par fours, although the 3rd and the 11th break with the Trent Sr. avoidance of short fours.  Glen Oak also has a short four (the 7th), although driving it is unlikely, as an enormous lake occupies the entire right side of the right-bending hole.  The shortest par three at Crag Burn is about 175, with a 155 copy of Augusta's 12th at Glen Oak.  Two of the par five holes are surprisingly boring at Glen Oak, while the 18th is over the top risk-reward and the 11th is quite strategic and excellent.  At Crag Burn, in contrast, the par five collection is the best aspect of the course.  From the unreachable 2nd (over 600 with the final 150 over water) to the quite-reachable 8th, 14th and 16th, it is these long holes that stand out as the essence of CB.  RTJ also did Bristol Harbor in central New York.  This course has a relatively flat front nine and a mountainous second nine.  The precision required to navigate the course is in lock-step with the typical Trent "one way to play it" philosophy.

Rees has a new course just over the border called Grand Niagara.  It has some elements of a Muskoka, Ontario-area woodland course, but mainly feels like a cookie-cut parkland course with neo-Augusta Stylings.  All the par fours are mid-length to extreme, ranging from 388 to 458.  The shortest set of tee decks measures 5700 yards...I bet the seniors, beginners and short hitters love that!  The course is heavily bunkered with flashes (just like Dad) and meanders through watery terrain.

Bobby has two courses in the extended area, Kaluhyat at Turning Stone and Hickory Stick (yet to open) in Lewiston, near Niagara Falls.  Kaluhyat is the most difficult course I've played, moving through, over and around wetlands on nearly every hole.  Narrow corridors make the trip quite claustrophobic.  In spite of the pinching feeling, Bobby was not at all shy about abusive use of bunkers to provide additional terror.  Kaluhyat would be a fine tournament course for the PGA event, save for the fact that the galleries would disappear as Luke Skywalker's ship did in Dagoba swamp.  Hickory Stick occupies a banal piece of property north of the cataract city, so bland that the term "blank canvas" might never have been better applied.  From what I have seen, it has the potential to be the most understated Bobby course since Chambers Bay.  It is no CB, mind you, but the absence of tons of wetlands extracts some of the teeth found in a typical Bobby course.

Roger Rulewhich, Trent Sr.'s both-hand man for decades, takes the "give me wetlands or give me death" position to new extremes.  Of the three Rulewich courses I've played (Saratoga National, Fox Hopyard and Tradition at Wallingford), all utilize wetlands, swamps, critical water hazards as their centerpieces, yet never shy away from heavy greenside bunkering.

If I had to summarize the four of them, I would say they represent magnify the importance of the air game over the ground game and demand the most refined sand game of wayward iron players.  As hinted at with Trent Senior, they know the way from tee to green, they tell you, and you'd better follow the road map.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

David Stamm

Re: Trent Jones family traits New
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2009, 08:50:19 PM »
I'll just add to Mike's comments. I've only played RTJ and RTJ, Jr. RTJ courses are not offensive to me, but like Mike said, there aren't bad holes, but there aren't any real memorable ones either, Spyglass' first five holes not withstanding. I genuinely like Pauma Valley, an early Sr. effort and consider it a solid test. His greens are typically quite large, but not super internally contoured from the ones I've seen, but generally very sloped and usually back to front. His bunkers are frequently pinching in both sides of the fw. Jr also has quite large greens (some at Poppy Hills are enormous!). From what I've seen, he uses quite a bit of mounding where his father hardly at all. I don't know why, but Jr's look more synthetic than his fathers, his fathers runway tees of course being an exception to that rule. Here's an aerial of Pauma Valley CC.

http://maps.live.com/?v=2&where1=Pauma%20Valley%2C%20CA&encType=1#
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 08:52:26 PM by David Stamm »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

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