Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM

[DMoriarty]

Apparently you've forgotten or never knew it but our research was on William Flynn, and not Merion before he ever got there. But I'm glad Wayne and a couple of member from Merion Golf and MCC did find those minutes as they just confirm what Merion East and West's history always said. Other than the 1912 trip abroad there was nothing new revealed.   

I know that this became your mantra after my essay, but before then you guys sang a different song.    Why don't you post your GAP article on Merion and show us how you guys have always known all this.  Surely gathered all your information before you had them publish it?    And how about the extensive essay Wayne did on early Merion, obstensibly for the USGA?  

What's in the Wilson's report to the Golf Committee that was given to the board isn't any different than what Wilson said 1916 and no different from what Mike Cirba already told you and I've already told you----eg the first day they went over Macdonald's plans and surveys FOR NGLA from abroad and the next day they spent studying the course itself---ie NGLA. That's it, that's all the report says, there is no more.

Problem is that is not what the 1916 article said.    You are both incorrect and incomplete.    Are the MCC minutes the same?   Why not just tell us what they say.  If it is the same, then what could it hurt?  

Don't get me wrong.  My guess is they don't say much of anything one way or another.   But this isn't really what you guys have indicated, is it?

[TEPaul]

"I know that this became your mantra after my essay, but before then you guys sang a different song.    Why don't you post your GAP article on Merion and show us how you guys have always known all this.  Surely gathered all your information before you had them publish it?    And how about the extensive essay Wayne did on early Merion, obstensibly for the USGA?"





The GAP article was on the Philadelphia School of Architecture and concentrated more on Pine Valley than Merion and the USGA 2005 US Amateur Program article was on Merion but both were only about five pages and there were other more important things to mention than this issue of Macdonald/Whigam advising and helping Merion for a grand total of about four days that ended before the course was even built. Maybe if my articles in those magazines had been about 100-200 pages I would've mentioned that.   





"Don't get me wrong.  My guess is they don't say much of anything one way or another.   But this isn't really what you guys have indicated, is it?"



You can "guess" whatever you want to David Moriarty---God knows you're definitely into GUESSING and endlessly speculating about the history of Merion! I've told you about a dozen times on these threads why those MCC meeting minutes aren't going to be transcribed on here so why bother asking again and why should I bother telling you again? If you want them then pick up the phone or go over there and speak with them about it as Wayne and two members from Merion Golf and MCC did about a year ago.

And you certainly never gave me anything on Merion and the few times I offered to help you on your understanding of Macdonald you refused so why in the world would I do a damn thing for you, at this point, when all you've ever done on here and continue to do on here is just cast aspersions on and question anything and everything I say? If you don't want to take my word for any of this than don't, I couldn't care less at this point.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I thought it was somewhat relevant given the prominence of the 10th hole in the Findlay article that is the topic of this thread.

There has just been so much hyperbole and verbiage flowing that I thought it was only fair that people here get to see and decide for themselves.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I guess the original 10th is sort of relevent to that Findlay article since it was the only hole mentioned on the course. I thought it was interesting that Findlay mentioned that a year plus after construction began Wilson was still saying the hole was still going to take some making somehow to be good and such and at least one on here is trying to say that Macdonald and Whigam routed and designed the course!?!? Well, the Alps hole was one of Macdonald'd templates and if he designed Merion East why was Wilson so concerned the 10th was going to need some Making somehow a year plus later in 1912? Why didn't the Uber-novice Wilson just BUILD it to Macdonald's plan in 1911?   

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Don't you get it??

Its because he was such a dolt of a novice that he couldn't even "lay out" Macdonald's plans right!

He clearly got the mound on Mac's "one day" plan bassackwards, building it behind the green instead of in front!

[DMoriarty]

The GAP article was on the Philadelphia School of Architecture and concentrated more on Pine Valley than Merion and the USGA 2005 US Amateur Program article was on Merion but both were only about five pages and there were other more important things to mention than this issue of Macdonald/Whigam advising and helping Merion for a grand total of about four days that ended before the course was even built. Maybe if my articles in those magazines had been about 100-200 pages I would've mentioned that. 

TEPaul, you don't owe me any explanation.  You guys already knew what you wanted to know, and so it must never have occurred to you guys that the Sayre's Scrapbooks, MCC, Pennsylvania's historical repository, or many of the local libraries might might contain some valuable historical information.  After all, even now you claim you knew it all anyway, right?

You can "guess" whatever you want to David Moriarty---God knows you're definitely into GUESSING and endlessly speculating about the history of Merion! I've told you about a dozen times on these threads why those MCC meeting minutes aren't going to be transcribed on here so why bother asking again and why should I bother telling you again?

Just to be more accurate, don't you mean that you will gladly cherry-pick and transcribe any selected portions to help make your case?   Obviously, the bit about NGLA does NOT help make your case.

And you certainly never gave me anything on Merion and the few times I offered to help you on your understanding of Macdonald you refused so why in the world would I do a damn thing for you, at this point, when all you've ever done on here and continue to do on here is just cast aspersions on and question anything and everything I say? If you don't want to take my word for any of this than don't, I couldn't care less at this point.

That's up to you.  But then you are leaving a huge hole in your timeline right around the second half of March 1910.   Here is part of a timeline for you that makes quite a bit more sense than yours. . .

- Before NGLA, a bunch of novices trying to make a golf course come up with some plans.
- At NGLA, those old plans are all thrown out the window, and M&W teaches them what they should be doing.
- After NGLA, those guys take what M&W told them and tried to fit it on the ground, coming up with 5 variations.
- A few weeks later, M&W come down to make sure they are doing it right.  They maybe make some changes, and then choose and finalize the routing.
- M&W go home and those guys take the plan to the board then try to build the golf course. 

Based on what I know, this seems the most likely scenario.   Nothing you have told us indicates otherwise.   

_____________________

Mike, nice contrast between your post on hyperbole and verbiage and your next one.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh David, please...

Don't you think this deserves at least a little humor?

I poked fun at about everything in this thread, including myself, including Hugh Wilson and some of his first attempts at creating template holes, and including all of us taking this whole subject as life and death.

I guess humor sometimes comes across as pretty flat on a computer screen.

I almost threw in another line about Pickering being pickled and getting Macdonald's plans backwards being responsible.

Perhaps I'm just tired of arguing and would much rather we all move onto something more productive and probably more worthy of our time and troubles at this point.

And...I also tried to be completely honest with you through this entire thread.   I felt you were at a disadvantage without having seen the Merion minutes and I have told you honestly what I know.    I don't want to argue with you, David...at least not over this again.

I'm trying to be civil and I'm trying to bring a little levity at this point...that's all.

[DMoriarty]

Believe me Mike, I find many of your posts hilarious.  Just not for the reasons you might hope.

Meanwhile . . .


- Before NGLA, a bunch of novices trying to make a golf course come up with some plans.
- At NGLA, those old plans are all thrown out the window, and M&W teaches them what they should be doing.
- After NGLA, those guys take what M&W told them and tried to fit it on the ground, coming up with 5 variations.
- A few weeks later, M&W come down to make sure they are doing it right.  They maybe make some changes, and then choose and finalize the routing.
- M&W go home and those guys take the plan to the board then try to build the golf course.

Based on what I know, this seems the most likely scenario.   Nothing you have told us indicates otherwise.   

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul, you don't owe me any explanation.  You guys already knew what you wanted to know, and so it must never have occurred to you guys that the Sayre's Scrapbooks, MCC, Pennsylvania's historical repository, or many of the local libraries might might contain some valuable historical information.  After all, even now you claim you knew it all anyway, right?"


David Moriarty:

Not at all. What I've tried to explain to you, seemingly about a dozen times on these Merion threads, is our interest (that is Wayne Morrison's and mine) was to research everywhere and anywhere we could find ON THE SUBJECT OF WILLIAM FLYNN!!!

Obviously the subject of William Flynn has a lot to do with Merion, and particularly an era of Merion that began somewhat later than 1910 and 1911 when MCC was in the process of moving their course from Haverford to Ardmore that initially created the East course---the course you seem to be so interested in the early architectural history of because of this on-going illogical, fact and timeline-skewing, history-revising jag you have been on for about five years on the subject of C.B. Macdonald and Merion East.

You just don't seem to understand that we didn't have the time or the interest at that time to do this kind of research on the minute details of the move from Haverford to Ardmore in 1910-1911 by MCC that did not have to do with William Flynn.

But we certainly have known about Sayer's Scrapebook, The Pennsylvania Historical Society, The USGA Museum Library, The Franklin Library, Merion's Archives, numerous club histories, newspaper and magazine accounts etc and have reviewed all of them but apparently for another purpose and subject than the one you seem to have such a burning interest in.

The MCC archives are newish to me and to Wayne as well and there's a good reason for that you probably still don't understand or appreciate.

But all this recent research on that 1910-1911 era of MCC and Merion, including the relatively recent find of additional MCC meeting minutes material is nonetheless very interesting to me now for a lot of reasons not only to do with Merion's early architecture or even golf course architecture.  And in fairness to you I doubt we would have done any of that to this extent had it not been for that really inaccurate essay of yours on Merion's 1910-1911 era and your contention of Macdonald's additional and more significant part in it.

[TEPaul]

"Just to be more accurate, don't you mean that you will gladly cherry-pick and transcribe any selected portions to help make your case?   Obviously, the bit about NGLA does NOT help make your case."


David Moriaty:

The only case I've been trying to make on this website is the factual and accurate case of what actually happened and by whom at MCC in their move from Haverford to Ardmore and the creation of the East and West course by Wilson and his committee. The collected history of Merion has explained that accurately with a notable exception to date which on over-all reflection and consideration and with additional research just does not indicate what you seemed to assume it did and apparently wanted to make it look like it did.

All I'm doing is pointing out what was recorded by MCC. I'm not indulging in "pie-in-the-sky" speculation about what it means due to what that record DOESN'T SAY, as you've been doing with Merion for a number of years including in that essay of yours.

[TEPaul]

"That's up to you.  But then you are leaving a huge hole in your timeline right around the second half of March 1910."


David Moriarty:

How is that? What huge hole is that around the second half of March 1910?

Or do you mean March, 1911?

It wouldn't surprise me if you do as you have never had the vaguest idea about what the hell was going on with MCC from one year to the next anyway. If you'd like a couple of really good examples of what I mean by that I'd be more than happy to supply them for both you and the participants on this website. 

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

No way that mound behind ten was built to protect golfers from errant first tee shots...

...that is unless golfers of that era could hit a snap hook about 290 yards and 80 yards offline!

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

No way that mound behind ten was built to protect golfers from errant first tee shots...

...that is unless golfers of that era could hit a snap hook about 290 yards and 80 yards offline!

Kyle,

How about errant second shots? 

Have you considered that most golfers at the club likely dribbled their tee shots, or popped them up 150 yards, or squirrled them off the heel for about 200 way left?

I'll post a drawing sometime soon that talks about the "mound" coming into play on #1.   

[DMoriarty]

"That's up to you.  But then you are leaving a huge hole in your timeline right around the second half of March 1910."


David Moriarty:

How is that? What huge hole is that around the second half of March 1910?

Or do you mean March, 1911?

I meant March 1911. But you knew that. 

Your time line asks us to believe that M&W were not responsible for the routing or hole concepts because they were only on site in June 1910 then again in April 1911.    Among the many problems with your time line is that it completely ignores the fact that Wilson and his Committee went to NGLA for two days in March 1911 for help.   You've tried to brush this meeting aside but your explanation defies common sense.  We aren't required to suspend common sense because you tell us to, are we?

Based on what we know, here is likely what happened arund the time of the  NGLA meeting . . .

- Before NGLA, a bunch of novices trying to make a golf course come up with some plans.
- At NGLA, those old plans are all thrown out the window, and M&W teaches them what they should be doing.
- After NGLA, those guys take what M&W told them and tried to fit it on the ground, coming up with 5 variations.
- A few weeks later, M&W come down to make sure they are doing it right.  They maybe make some changes, and then choose and finalize the routing.
- M&W go home and those guys take the plan to the board then try to build the golf course.

[Adam_Messix]

Mike C--

Thank you for posting the pictures of #10 during the '16 Amateur.  It leads me to a question for all....Looking at that picture and of other pictures taken even closer to the opening of the course in 1912, stylistically what do those holes look like?  I'm asking in regards to bunker style as much as anything. 

If Joe Bausch is reading this, have you come across any articles in your research about the opening of other MacDonald courses? 

[DMoriarty]

Adam

Interesting question, but I should perhaps clarify that I have no reason to believe that cbm was directly involved in aesthetic concerns like bunker style.  He may have given him general advice and maybe sent them Pickering, but beyond that I wouldn't read too much into bunker look .  Merion is different than cbm's other courses in that cbm and/or raynor did not build it. This I think is at the root of much of the confusion over the years.

That being said I will post some early photos of cbm's early work later.  You might be surprised.

[TEPaul]

"Merion is different than cbm's other courses in that cbm and/or raynor did not build it. This I think is at the root of much of the confusion over the years."



Adam:

Merion certainly is different than other cbm's and/or raynor courses because cbm and/or raynor not only didn't build it they didn't route or design it either!

I wouldn't be at all surprised by early cbm bunkers, particularly at NGLA, because I've seen all the photos of them in the photo albums in the big room at NGLA and they don't look much like the way they did eventually under Macdonald which is very important to know and understand because there is no question whatsoever that Macdonald continued to work on NGLA for almost thirty years.

[Mike_Cirba]

I keep hearing the term "bunch of novices" which certainly is meant to create a mental impression yet to me only conveys the hidden contempt for 1ilson and Co. Obviously held by the author.

Of course, this terminlology is only accurate in the sense of construction and agronomy, but so what...so basically was everyone else in the country including Macdonald, who at the time was suffering vast problems growing grass which delayed the opening of NGLA by at least a year if not more.

It also ignores that the Merion team were all versed in all things golf for the previous 15 years, were all well-travelled, and that Wilson was a scratch golfer at Princeton over a decade earlier, had played virtually every course of note in the US in college and amateur play, and was on the green committee of Princeton in 1902 building and opening Willie Dunn's design that year.

It also ignores the reality that both sets of novices...Macdonald's committee at NGLA and Wilson's committee at Merion, employed the VERY experienced services of one Mr. Fred Pickering, who at that time has already constructed and grown in literally hundreds of courses and news accounts claimed that Piclering's work at Merion was the best of his career by far.

[Mike_Cirba]

The funny part is that all Wilson ever admitted that the committee were novice at was construction and agronomy...the very things that David argues were their sole assignment!

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

Not a CBM course?  I am afraid we disagree again.  Even by your attenuated reading of the facts, it is looking more and more like a CBM course.   You claim they spent their time with CBM going over sketches and drawings CBM had used for NGLA, and the next day going over the course itself.   (You want us to believe that doing so had nothing to do with planning Merion, and that they did not even bother to bring their preliminary plans or a contour map, but that is ludicrous.)

But let's assume for argument that this is all they did; looked at sketches CBM had used for NGLA, and examined the course itself.   This still begs a crucial question.   Why?   

Why travel to NGLA at all?  Why learn how CBM understood the underlying principles of the great holes and how he incorporated these principles into the golf holes at NGLA?   Why have M&W travel all the way to Ardmore to check on the progress?  Why give him final say on the routing?   Why try to build a Redan like Macdonald had built?   Why try to built an Alps like Macdonald had built?  Why try to build a replica of the Eden green?   Why include a number of other features and principles straight out of the CBM handbook.  Why build a course where most of the holes were reportedly based on the great holes abroad (that Wilson had not yet seen?)

Even by your understanding (with which I disagree), it is becoming apparent they were trying to build a course based on CBM's understandings of what a golf course should be.

___________________________________

Mike,

Once again you substitute your untenable theories for the words of those who were there.   Show some respect for these men, will you?  Wilson and a Committee were admittedly in way over their heads.   Fortunately they had the good sense to go to the experts;  Piper and Oakley for turf, Pickering for Construction, and Macdonald and Whigham for picking the first two, as well as for the routing and hole concepts.   I'd have expected no less from these great men of Merion. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,



If, as you claim, Wilson's sole purpose for creating the large mound behind the 10th green, was to protect golfers from ball hit off the 1st tee, why did he wrap the large mound so far around the green ?

There is NO way a ball, hit from the 1st tee could approach that green from it's right flank, especially from the angle that protects the right rear and right mid-section of the green.

The wrap around nature of the large mound precludes the mound from being constructed solely for the purpose of protecting golfers on the 10th green, from tee shots from the 1st tee.



In addition, the fronting bunker IS an important feature in an "Alps" hole, especially the one found at NGLA,  which Wilson was familiar with.

Initially, I doubted David's theory.
But, after further consideration and analysis, I don't think there's any doubt that this was Wilson's attempt to create his own "Alps" hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

The pictures you supplied would seem to confirm my premise, that there was an elevation differential that would cause golfers in the DZ to be unable to see the putting surface, the critical feature of an "Alps" hole.



Notice the steps leading UP from Ardmore Ave to the fairway.

That elevation differential would prevent golfers in the DZ from viewing the putting surface.

In addition, the photo below seems to indicate that the gallery in front, (upper right) is at an elevation higher than those on the putting green.  You can see them reclining and watching the golfers below them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike & Dave, et. al,

Read the passage below, then interpolate it in the context of the photos of # 10

It seems obvious that Wilson's "Alps" was saddly lacking in comparison to the 3rd at NGLA and the 17th at Prestwick, and that Wilson was advised to STUDY the 17th at Prestwick since he was laboring under the impression that he had built a good "Alps".

"The writer spent a pleasant hour last Wednesday afternoon with Hugh I. Wilson, wandering over the new Merion golf course, which he has spent so much of his time on.  His main object is to make this the king-pin course of Pennsylvania.  I am not yet prepared to talk about the possibilities of this new place because it is really just growing, and Fred Pickering, the coursemaker, will give it the finishing touches in the late fall.
     
It will then be time to reveal to the world its features, etc.  Wilson has just returned from a trip abroad.  He visited all the leading courses, gathering what data he could anent the making of good golf holes.  I advised him, preparatory to his trip to Scotland, to watch carefully the seventeenth, or Alps hole, at Prestwick, which he really imagined existed on his new course.  He is now convinced that it will take a lot of making to equal that famous old spot. 

But many of the others, as laid out by Charles B. McDonald, are really great.  Wilson became quite fond of Prestwick, Troon, Formby, Hoylake, Sandwich, Deal and Princes, but was sadly disappointed in St. Andrew, which, in reality, is a myth.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

Your post #412 just may be worth a thread, even if the specific subject just may be a bit up in the air at the moment!

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

In the picture below look at how many rows of spectators there are to the left of the green, and how they are much higher than the putting surface.    One of the Flynn drawings indicates that this was also a bank with the green below.   

 

Mike speculates that the photo from left of the green was artificially elevated, probably from a tree(!) I doubt it.   It seems just as likely that the photo was off of one of the mounds that no longer exist.  In all of these photos it looks as if there may have been mounding left of the green.   

As for the Findlay passage you quote, I think you have it just about correct.   Wilson imagined he had already built an Alps hole at Merion.  Findlay disagreed and told him to study Prestwick's Alps.  This convinced Wilson that Merion's Alps needed a lot of work.  But many of the others [holes at Merion] are really great.  Oh yeah, it was cbm who laid out the others.   

Wilson must have gotten to work, perhaps adding the front bunkers or building up the mounding in front.   Whatever he did, by the time the course was ready to open three month's later Findlay was equating the second shot on Merion's hole Alps with that of Prestwick's.