Are "options" at ANGC a myth for the PGA Tour player ?

[John_Cullum]

I'm not suggesting they move the tee

[Kalen Braley]

Theres an old aerial that was posted on this site a few times...I remember seeing it a few months ago in a different Augusta thread.  IIRC, it showed the 15th hole and would be very interesting to see what was there then and compare to these current pics.  Can someone repost this?

FWIW, I don't see how any merit can be given to those illustrations...pics are the only thing that mean anything in this dicussion.

[BCrosby]

Kalen - Check out Stan Byrdy's book.

[Chip Gaskins]

here is the old aerial...

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks Chip,

I just found that same aerial doing a Google search but the one you posted is even bigger.  I'm not sure what can be concluded from looking at this, because just about all the trees on 15 aren't even there yet. Although it does look like there are some tiny ones growing right in the middle of the fairway, which could be what is there today.  Maybe MacKs original intent was for this hole to be a split fairway of sorts.

This current aerial when compared to the old one shows just how much fairway has been lost though..

[George Pazin]

Jack Nicklaus had to hit a 1 iron into that green in the 60's or 70's. Today, if Tiger hits his drive straight enough, he would hit a 1 iron over the pond on #16...I'd like to believe the fans at Augusta that generate these roars understand the difference between an eagle putt that resulted from a good drive and a great 1 iron versus a good drive and a good 7 iron...I see no reason not to ask Tiger to hit a really good/great drive in order to hit his 7 iron in.

What would he have to hit off the tee to need 1-iron to reach the green? Even a 3-iron to reach the green? What club would Tiger woods hit off the tee to leave the equivalent approach risk that Jack hit? I think he would reach that green, down that hill, from 245 front with a 3-iron. Call it 255 center on a 530 hole...that's a drive of 275...that is a 3-iron or 5-wood off the tee. How wide is the fairway at 275 from the back tee? It looks like 50 yards in most of those images...

I thought I had read many times that Jack saying it wasn't at all unusual for him to have short irons into the back 9 par 5s. There may have been the occasional year where weather or a mishit tee shot with a wooden driver may have necessitated a long iron, but I would swear I've read stories of him having short irons into 13 and 15. What did he hit in the infamous 86 Masters? Is that where you're getting the 1 iron? (Honest questions, not doubting your intent)

I'd rather see them call 15 a par 4 than alter it.

[JESII]

I believe he hit 4-iron in '86. There is a story of a 1-iron from one of his earlier wins...the mishit of bad weather could explain the need for it though, which I hadn't considered. I actually didn't know he ever mishit any shots...

[John_Cullum]

Fuzzy Zoeller (one of the longest hitters in the field in 1979) hit three wood into 15 on his victorious Sunday. It was into the wind

[George Pazin]

I actually didn't know he ever mishit any shots...

All we know for certain is that his competitors never mishit shots or choked. Those guys were good...

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jim,

YES there were ALWAYS trees on the left


Then why would you post illustrations that didn't depict those trees ?
Especially when you know that they're there from personal observations compiled over the 100 walks you've made on site ?

You not only posted a misrepresentative 1997 illustration, but, tried to reinforce your erroneous position by posting another misrepresentative 1995 illustration.

That's disingenuous and intellectually dishonest and I'm surprised that you would resort to such a deceitful tactic.

(but now there are MORE trees on the left as well as on the right) and as Bob said every thing is constricted in the primary landing area to the point where if the drive is not perfect down the middle your option is to pitch out down the fairway.  Not very exciting and not what was intended for the hole. 

That's also NOT TRUE.

For decades and decades, drives hit in the left center to left side of the fairway COULDN'T go for the green due to the trees in the left side of the fairway.  Drives in the left rough also faced that wall of trees.

I remember following Nicklaus many years ago during an early practice round.  Hardly anyone around him.  We were on the tee on #15 and he was chatting with the few of us who were watching.  Someone asked what he tried to do on the tee shot.  He said something like, "Hit it hard, its the next shot that you really have to worry about." 

Mark, they all try to "hit it hard" on par 5's.
Just look at Phil Mickelson's driving status on Par 5's versus par 4's.
And, the reason that you have to worry about the second shot is that it's almost impossible to NOT have a recovery shot off the drive that will enable you to hit the green in regulation.
And, if you hit a good drive, there's no guarantee that you won't find a watery grave or bunker on your next shot.

Frankly there is something very exciting about a golfer hitting a second shot close on a par five (whether it is a 3W or a 6I), it doesn't really matter too much vs. someone hitting a wedge close for their third shot. 

That's also not true.
3rd shot wedges that come close to the hole are cheered and applauded loudly.
The fans/patrons at ANGC know the difference between executing a 3W into a green and a 6-iron.  And, they also know that holes like # 13, # 15 and # 18 weren't intended to have wedges and sand wedges hit into them for the second shots.

If you have every been too Augusta during the tournament, the roars are very distinctive.  If you haven't been you need to go at least once.

Everyone should be fortunate enough to attend a Masters, the best run event in Sport.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

You live in a different universe from the one I live in if you think any of the following fw's at ANGC are "not narrow" -

- 7th
- 11th
- 15th
- 17th

Bob,

# 7 has been narrow for some time.
So much so that an iron off the tee made sense,, even for an old amateur like me.
But, the addition of substantial length has taken that option almost out of the equation and the new tees do have a very narrow shute, but, that's only for the best golfers in the world.

# 11 was narrowed, then opened up a little.
It has to be one of the most uncomfortable tee shots I've faced.
I certainly liked the hole better before the trees were planted.

# 15 is narrower, but, opening the hole up and allowing driver-wedge isn't the solution either.
And, a right side bunker in the rough doesn't change the play of the hole very much.
First Sarazen holes a 4W, then Nicklaus hits a 1-iron, then Seve hooked a 4-iron into the water, then 7-irons were being hit into the green, then Woods hit wedge.   Certainly any observer would glean that the hole was NOT playing as intended.  The architecture remained static and defenseless in the face of evolving hi-tech equipment.  Unfortunately, as you point out, there isn't much room for additional length.

# 17 was effectively narrow due to Ike's tree, but, the fairway opened up beyond that.
The lengthening of the hole is part of the problem.

New trees on the 2nd, 9th and 18th make those holes much more narrow for the first 250 yds off the tee.

Perhaps, but, 2 and 9 remain fairly wide off the tee.
The additional length on # 18 effectively narrows the hole.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, by any measure ANGC is much more narrow than it was not too many years ago. All of which might not matter except for the fact that extremely wide playing corridors was an explicit design objective of MacK.

We agree on this, however, once the course decided to host a tournament open to professionals, which evolved into a Major, the die was cast.

With the golf course in its original configuration, you might as well hold the Masters during the desert swing of the PGA Tour.  Holding the event on a golf course that permitted or encouraged scoring 28 under par wouldn't allow the event to be deemed a Major.

You can't view AM's design objectives in the context of today's PGA Tour golfer when inadequate land exists for his concept of elasticity.

If you think MacK was wrong to have such views or if you thnk such views are inherently wrong, let's debate that.

But there can be no serious debate about the recent narrowing of a number of holes at ANGC.


Bob, where did I state that ANGC hasn't narrowed their holes ?
Could you or Mark cite any such statement on my part ?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Kalen,

Thanks for the photo you posted of # 15.

Those left side trees have been there for decades and decades, including the years 1995 and 1997

Rich Goodale,

There isn't any substantive slope on # 15 between the tee and the trees on the left.
Perhaps a slight right to left cant.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Thanks for the photo you posted of # 15.

Those left side trees have been there for decades and decades, including the years 1995 and 1997

Pat,

No doubt they have been there for a long time because they are very large. 

Another question for you. Based on the aerial that Chip posted, do you think its possible MacK originally meant for the 15th to evolve into a split fairway type of hole with those tiny trees being planted right in the middle of the fairway?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Kalen,

I think it was a design consideration.

The unfortunate thing about ANGC is the disconnect with AM.

Had there been a continuation of the relationship subsequent to opening day, the generous width might have been preserved and # 15 might have been a split fairway. 

On the other hand, Maxwell's contribution seems to have been very positive.
Many, if not most believe that # 7 and # 10 were improved, and that # 16 was subsequently improved.

I happen to like the concept of a split fairway, especially if one side provides an advantage for the next shot at the expense of it being more difficult to get to, sort of like the "bottle" hole at NGLA.

And, I think the LEFT side would have been the preferred side due to the cant of the green and the angle of attack.

Remember, Ross did this at Seminole on a par 5 just a few years earlier, although the configuration of the holes are wildly different.

The very real dilema that ANGC faces is the difficulty or inability to serve two Masters, the members and guests and the annual Major, The Masters.

I don't know of any course that could accomodate routine play and a Major every year without alterations to the original golf course.

P.S.. I love the old fairway bunker on # 14

[John_Cullum]

Those objects in the middle of the 15th fairway in that old aerial have always mystified me. There are some closer to the tee inthe left part of the fairway too. I just can't believe that they are trees planted for the purpose of being a part of the course

[BCrosby]

The original 15th fw actually had fw to the left of those trees and ginormous width to the right.

Bob

[John_Cullum]

For what its worth, there are 63 players on the course now and 40 are even or better

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

John Cullum,

Old photos, circa 1934 seem to show saplings planted in many areas, including between holes.

It would be interesting if we could get photos from historicphotos.com or classicphotos.com or whatever the site is that JSlonis got the pictures of PV from.

Those photos would reveal when trees were planted, bunkers removed and all other changes to the golf course. 

I do know that after the 1959 US Open at WF, that the club embarked upon a serious tree planting program.

That may have been one of the factors that caused club after club to plant trees in the 60's and 70's.

The photos would reveal the info we seek.

[Kalen Braley]

Yes, I know my photoshop skills suck big time.  Perhaps Ian or Jeff can help out here.

But wouldn't 15 be a better hole if it played something like this?  Isn't this closer to the original design intent and make the players make a decision on the tee?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Kalen,

That's a great rendering, but, the right side could be widened a little more.

My concern regarding the narrowing is that other clubs will adopt the philosophy despite the fact that a Tournament with PGA Tour Pros will never come near their club.

Examine what happens to clubs that host PGA Tour Tournaments.

Members want to defend the club's honor.
They don't want par to be demolished.
Enter DEFENSE.
Longer holes, narrower fairways, deeper rough and faster greens.

The problem is that those conditions exist for four (4) days, YET some members want them to remain for the entire season.

Narrowing the fairways and THEN bringing in the bunkers to match was what Baltusrol and Oakmont did in order to orchestrate a challenge for the greatest players in the world.

Unfortunately, average golfers, the members and their guests have to play the revised configuration long after the PGA Tournament has left town.

AND, NO CLUB that I know of  has employed and utilized elasticity when the tournament leaves.

Narrowed fairways remain.

[Charlie Goerges]

Just for the heck of it, here is one I did, not particularly apropos.

before:








After:

[Kalen Braley]

Charlie,

Awesome work.  How about a version of a split fairway with that clump of trees in the middle about half the size it is now...

[Charlie Goerges]

Here you go:

[Chip Gaskins]

Charlie-

That is great work!  Need more trees on left as penalty....because the way that green sits every would want to go to the left, so there needs to be a tighter spot over there than on the right.  Otherwise a great idea!

Chip

[Charlie Goerges]

One last try: