[Patrick_Mucci]

I keep hearing how ANGC has eliminated "options" from play at The Masters by planting trees and letting some light rough grow in.

Could someone explain, on a hole by hole basis, what real playing options existed ten years ago that no longer exist today, due to the trees and the rough ?

Thanks.

P.S.  Is everyone aware that ANGC remains mostly a wide golf course ?

[Chip Gaskins]

i agree with you, it is a very wide open golf course.

i also agree with you that with the exception of #15 and maybe #11 i never have really understood the removal of the angles and options argument

with that said, i suppose the biggest option that has been removed would be the ground hook, sling shot effect on the right side of #15.  now with the trees planted and the mound lowered the player can not swing a hook off the hills and run it down the fairway.

the 11th hole where the trees are now used to allow players to blow it way over to the right and have a short iron in, now you have to hit in the fairway and hit over the water.  though it is longer now, hitting over the water seems easier than hitting parallel to it from the right side of the fairway (where the trees are now).

the 7th hole now basically mandates driver if you are going to be able to hit any type of short iron so you can hold the green

honestly the biggest change is the course is simply so much longer than it used to be versus the removal of options.

[Mark_Fine]

When is the last time you guys were down to Augusta?

[Chip Gaskins]

December 12th, 2007

[David_Tepper]

The April 6 issue of GolfWorld has a lengthy article on Ben Crenshaw and his relationship with AGNC and the Masters. Some excerpts from that article, on pages 73 & 74.

Speaking of a letter he wrote to Hootie Johnson in 2002, "I tried to point out that the nature of playing the course had changed."

Julie Crenshaw, Ben's wife, commenting on Ben's opinions of the changes, "Ben totally agrees with a lot of the stuff they've had to do. But he also goes back to Bobby Jones and what they wanted to accomplish when they built the course. And the new trees and rough are not part of it."

Crenshaw himself comments, "You always felt at Augusta you could take a chance on something, whether it was a tee ball or a second shot. You had more room to play and more people could play dangerously. It was totally different from any challenge in the world."

As written in the article: To Crenshaw, the narrowing of the fairways from the equivalent of wide boulevards to country lanes altered things dramatically. "The second cut on lots of the holes-  that's first and foremost, because the course went from here to like this," he says, moving his hands very close together: "I think they needed to do something in the way of length, but I wouldn't have constricted it as much. There is no question it has become more of a defensive proposition."   

There is also a very good article by John Hawkins about the course ("Bringing Back The Buzz") in the same issue.

[Mark_Fine]

Chip,
You must be a very straight hitter of the golf ball because the golf course is no longer wide open by most people's definition of wide open.  Seems Ben's analogy of wide boulevards transformed to country lanes is a very good analogy. 
Mark

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

If strategy has been eliminated at Augusta, it is due to the aerial orientation of today's game and not the relatively width of the course's fairways.  It seems to me the course is all about the "leave" with the approach and that it is no longer necessary to favor one side of the fairway to make hole locations mores accessible.

With the unfortunate exception of the 7th, the course continues to beg the player to swing freely from the tee. 

Mike

[Chip Gaskins]

Mark-

Some may call the "second cut" rough, but I sure don't.

I feel like the rough, if that is what you want to call it, actually may contain the balls from going way into the pine straw and reducing some of the heroic recovery shots we used to see.  Either way, hitting a ball out of that rough is no problem for a tour pro to control.  I can't imagine a professional golfer standing on any of these tees and being too worried.


#2

Wide open, land a 747 in that fairway....





wide open on #3 tee...



here are where some may say the "options" have been lost on #7 with tree planting and narrowness, especially at today's distances.  this green is impossible to hold with more than a 8 or 9 iron i think.



pretty wide on #8 tee



#9 opens up wide once you get out of the shoot of trees



no doubt about it, #11 is tight tight tight...then again, bobby jones had a blind pot bunker in the middle of fairway for a few years...



again, about as wide open as you can get at #13 tee



tee shot on #14 is wide open still



even though the trees have been added (and now some removed) down the right of #15 it is really the change in the slopes that take that slingshot effect away...



due to the length, not the tree planting on the right, #17 tee shot is more challenging now (plus ike's tree has grown!)



#18 tee is really really tight, but its not that new trees have been put in, its that tee box is 80 yards back from where it used to be so your shot has to be perfectly straight for a long time.  the options on this hole changed long ago though, not in the recent changes.



For the most part, I can't imagine a professional golfer standing on any of these tees and being too worried.

Again, I think it is the length (and cold weather in recent Masters) that has been added to so many holes that has changed the strategies of the pros...but that is just my opinion.  I mean hitting a 7 iron to a green like #1, #7, #14, #17 versus hitting a wedge makes all the difference in the world, especially on the greens of Augusta.

On a whole, it is much wider than say Prairie Dunes, Merion, Sawgrass, etc...

Chip

[Mark Pritchett]

Chip is correct with regards to the second cut stopping some some balls further trouble.

Today on number seven I watched Chad Campbell's drive find the second cut on the right side of the fairway, yet preserved his angle the pin cut on the left side of the green.  Before the introduction of the second cut, Chad's ball is a few yards further right of the fairway and he is left with the option to chip out or go for the heroic shot around the trees (options) what a concept for golf. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

If strategy has been eliminated at Augusta, it is due to the aerial orientation of today's game and not the relatively width of the course's fairways. 

Mike,

The PGA Tour Pros have been playing the aerial game for 50 years at ANGC.

The PGA Tour does NOT employ the ground game as the shot of choice.

It seems to me the course is all about the "leave" with the approach and that it is no longer necessary to favor one side of the fairway to make hole locations mores accessible.

With few exceptions, the fairways remain wide, allowing the golfer to choose his angle of attack.

But, with PGA Tour Pros hitting 7 irons 185 yards, does it make any difference as to which part of the fairway they approach from ?

Chip,

Thanks for the photos.

I think too many people believe what they read, without any understanding of the width that remains at ANGC.

When they read that the course has been narrowed, I think they context ANGC as a course with a U.S. Open setup, when nothing could be further from the truth.

So, again I ask, what options have been removed from the PGA Tour Pros ideal play of each hole ?

[Mark_F]

I think too many people believe what they read, without any understanding of the width that remains at ANGC.

Patrick,

Interesting difference in perspective between Chip's images of the 15th hole above, and this one:
                   

You would almost swear it was a different golf hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I've always prefered photos taken from the golfer's eye versus aerial photos.

The golfer's eye photos tell you the more accurate story, especially with respect to fairway cant/slope

Don't forget, # 15 is a par 5.

You also have to view the photos in the context of the quality of the golfer and the tees being played.

[Mark_F]

Patrick,

No, that's fair enough.

There was such a disparity between the two images, I was just wondering which was the truer representation.  I'm glad it is Chip's image.

[David_Tepper]

A link to John Hawkins GolfWorld article is below. Points #2 (Slow down the greens) and #3 (Break out the mowers and chainsaws) are quite valid.

http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/special/masters/2009/gw20090406hawkins

[jeffwarne]

Chip,
Is Ike's tree gone?

[Matthew Mollica]

That's what I was wondering too.  Ike's Tree looks like it's still there. 


Of course there are options all over the course at Augusta. Still an abundance of challenging heroic options, yet I suspect there are more unattractive options, and less achievable heroic options.

In comparison to previous years, I think the course now tightens appreciably, at several sites where pro players would like to drive. I imagine this is largely consistent with Hootie's wishes.

The course is more narrow on 7,11,13,14,15 and 17, with the tee moving back on 18 also demanding a straighter drive. That's 50% of the holes when we exclude par 3s.

Agreed there is ample width on holes such as 2,3,5,8,9 and 10, as there has always been.

Interesting difference in perspective between Chip's images of the 15th hole above, and this one:
                   

You would almost swear it was a different golf hole.

Mark - thanks for putting up that aerial picture of 15.

Mark,

I've always prefered photos taken from the golfer's eye versus aerial photos.

The golfer's eye photos tell you the more accurate story, especially with respect to fairway cant/slope

Don't forget, # 15 is a par 5.

You also have to view the photos in the context of the quality of the golfer and the tees being played.

Pat - the fairway width is consistent independant of the observers viewpoint.

I'm curious Pat, for you to explain how the par of the hole is an explanation for reduction in fairway width.

MM

[Mark_F]

Mark,

I've always prefered photos taken from the golfer's eye versus aerial photos.

The golfer's eye photos tell you the more accurate story, especially with respect to fairway cant/slope

Don't forget, # 15 is a par 5.

You also have to view the photos in the context of the quality of the golfer and the tees being played.

Pat - the fairway width is consistent independant of the observers viewpoint.

I'm curious Pat, for you to explain how the par of the hole is an explanation for reduction in fairway width.

MM

Matt,

One reason why the image from above may appear different is the type of lens used.  I have no idea what sort of kit Chip took his photo's with, but a wide angle lens from ground level would make everything seem further apart, whereas the high shot could have been taken with a telephoto lens, which compresses perspective.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew,

Look at the DZ  short of the trees on # 15.
It's rather generous.

Look at the LZ short of the pond.
It's rather generous.

If you drive your ball anywhere in the fairway on # 15 you have a shot, either to the green or to the fairway short of the pond, leaving you a relatively short approach into the green, which can result in birdie or par.

If the hole was a par 4, tee shots in the left portion of the fairway would have no opportunity to hit the green in regulation, almost always causing a bogie.

Hence, since getting to the green in two is not a problem for the PGA Tour Pros, requiring them to hit their drives in the optimal location in order to do so is a reasonable test.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
Have you ever been to Augusta (in the last ten years)?  I'm starting to think you are making all your assumptions from seeing photos (big mistake) 

By the way, you have missed the whole point of #15. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I've played ANGC fairly frequently over the last 10 years, with a return visit scheduled for next month.

How often have you played it ?

[JESII]

Mark,

Instead of asking questions of the people having the conversation that imply a lack of credibility on their part, why don't you post your opinion on some of this...which holes do you think would improve through a tree clearing for the PGA Tour player? And why?

[JESII]

Pat,

I think each player develops their own game plan and sticks to it. Players who hit the ball of very similar distances will develop virtually identical plans. Mickleson will have a different plan than Zach Johnson, but Johnson and Wier will have virtually identicle plans.

In that context, there are very few courses in the world that actually leave a player mystified on the tee or in the fairway come tournament time.

[Chip Gaskins]

I mistyped, Ike's tree has "grown" not "gone".  Sorry bout that.

My camera was cheap pocket point and shoot Cannon.  Nothing special and used factory settings (whatever they are).

#15 is wide and fair.  There is no doubt the trees on the LEFT have grown a lot...you can't miss your tee ball over there anymore and still have a shot really (think back to Couples big hook in 92) because the branches are really out there.  And the new trees on the right are fine...I mean come on, Tiger hitting a PW to a par 5 in 97'...that sort of makes a mockery of the hole and with no where to go to lengthen it, then they did the right thing by just altering the slingshot effect on the ground.  Like Pat said, still a good hole and plenty, plenty of width off the tee to hit the green or layup.

Again, the real change at ANGC is not the trees or even the second cut, its the length.  It is just so much harder to hit a 180 yard approach to those greens, especially when you had been hitting a 130 yard approach for years.  Holding the greens, and specifically hitting to the correct spot on the green has much more to do with what club you hit in (6 iron versus 9 iron) versus what angle the ball is coming in to the green from.  In my opinion.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
If Pat has played that course as much as he says, he knows how narrow it has become (relative to what it once was).  He just likes to debate and some of us don't have all day like he does.  Do you think Ben Crenshaw is clueless with his comment about how the width has dramatically decreased? 

Here is one comment - the 15th hole was in my opinion designed to tempt the pro golfer to go at that green in two (even with a marginal tee shot).  Today, you have a very narrow fairway window (pacing it off about 20 yards wide) in the primary pro landing area, which is narrower than most U.S. Open landing areas.  If you miss that window, all you can do is pitch it down in front of the green and play a wedge in - now that is really exciting    Furthermore, the whole right side has been cluttered with trees which not only restricts the tee shot and forces pitch outs, but ruins one of the best panaromic views on the golf course.  You used to be able to stand there and look out over an amazing piece of property.  Now you look at the back of grove of pine trees    If they had any sense as to what was intended for that golf hole, they might have placed an old Mackenzie shaped fairway bunker on the right instead of those stupid trees.  Now the golfer who misses right would have to think about going at that green from a bunkered lie 230 or 240 yards away.   What great temptation!  It would make these guys think!!  The trees do the exact opposite as there is no option if you are behind them.  Someday maybe someone will figure this out.  This is the kind of drama that make Augusta National exciting. 

Mark

[John_Cullum]

There are no options on the PGA Tour. There is just one ideal shot.

The only time you see two Tour players trying 2 different shots on 2 different angles is when one guy has the ideal shot and the other guy doesn't - for example, going over the bunker on #1 at ANGC or hitting a big sling hook off the tee to wrap around the dogleg on #13.

These are not options. There are differences in ability - generally length and shot-shape.  If the short hitter or the guy who can't wrap it could, he would. 

That was exactly my point on the other thread. There is no "strategy" in stroke play golf at higher levels. The only time to employ strategy is in match play

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