Dissing Crystal Downs

[John Pflum]

Saw this on The Golf Channel site:

"Two separate national golf magazine recently released two curious lists ranking the nation’s top courses. One ranking, Golf Digest’s “America’s 100 Greatest Golf Courses” began its list as one would imagine: 1. Augusta National, 2. Pine Valley, 3. Shinnecock Hills, 4. Cypress Point, 5. Oakmont.
 
The other, Golfweek’s “Top 100 Classic Courses” had a different spin. Now, we’ve never played Michigan’s Crystal Downs, and we’re sure it’s a wonderful place to spend an afternoon, but at eighth on the list Crystal Downs is two spots ahead of Augusta National. In the name of full disclosure, it must be noted that your correspondent served as a Golfweek rater for nearly 10 years before joining GolfChannel.com.
 
Just a hunch, but if you polled 1,000 American golfers and asked if they’d rather play Augusta National or Crystal Downs, 999 are going to go with The National. We could be wrong."

I've been blessed to play CD a few times and absolutely love the place.  I did a course tour a few years back:

http://www.rsgcincinnati.com/Crystaldowns/crystaldowns.html

[David Kelly]

Just a hunch, but if you polled 1,000 American golfers and asked if they’d rather play Augusta National or Crystal Downs, 999 are going to go with The National. We could be wrong."

If you polled 1000 golfers about whether they would rather  play TPC Sawgrass or Doral or Torrey Pines or Bay Hill or Firestone or Muirfield Village or a lot of other courses vs. Crystal Down the vast majority of them would not choose Crystal Downs but that has nothing to do with the quality of courses.

[Gene Greco]

Just a hunch, but if you polled 1,000 American golfers and asked if they’d rather play Augusta National or Crystal Downs, 999 are going to go with The National. We could be wrong."

If you polled 1000 golfers about whether they would rather  play TPC Sawgrass or Doral or Torrey Pines or Bay Hill or Firestone or Muirfield Village or a lot of other courses vs. Crystal Down the vast majority of them would not choose Crystal Downs but that has nothing to do with the quality of courses.

David's reponse highlights the provincial nature of TGC and, as such, its very tour-centric viewpoints .

However, there is very little we can do about it as the power which the media possess seems to  be able to sway the majority into moronic "thinking" regarding far more significant issues than CD versus Firestone.

[mike_beene]

The real debate at TGC is whether the world's best course is Isleworth or Bay Hill.

[Tim_Weiman]

John,

I first saw Crystal Downs back in the days when it was still a "hidden gem". It is still the only course I've seen make someone cry - an older gentleman who travelled from Sydney, Australia - when he walked off knowing he would never have the opportunity to visit again.

It's fun seeing Augusta National each year for the Masters and it is a beautiful place, but I'd still prefer Crystal Downs anytime.

[RJ_Daley]

Hey Tim, we got the odds down to 2 in a 1000! 

[Kirk Gill]

Ok, I'll bite. I'll be the ass who admits to actually wanting to play August National over Crystal Downs. I've read about CD on this site, and have, with interest, read Ran's fine writeup of the course. Its advocates on this site are numerous and convincing. However, I've been watching the pros play at Augusta since I was a little kid. It's got the kind of history that, frankly, trumps strictly architectural interest. I'm not qualified to have an opinion as to which course is "better," and that sort of thinking doesn't really enter my mind much anyway, when it comes to thinking about golf courses. But if I was given a chance to play only one of them, I'd go with Augusta first, and would do my best to not be wracked with regret for the rest of my life. Moronic "thinking," I know. Count me amongst the sheep.

[Brett Hochstein]

I've got to imagine Augusta is special, but I would need to spend some time playing and walking around with no one around to make a fair judgment.  This is how one truly gets to know the course--a one on one conversation.  The day I had at Crystal Downs was purely a spiritual experience, playing with Mike DeVries then wandering around taking pictures and notes, finishing in solitude upon the edge of the ninth green as the golden sun set over the bluff and Lake Michigan.  It was so profound a moment and day that it actually inspired me to base a studio project on the experience, and I will scan it in full and post it on my site sometime soon.

What I can say is that Augusta may be magical, but the setting could not possibly be a match for the Downs.  Also, with the impact of the Masters, its authenticity to the spirit of the game may not be either.  I would love to get down there and take a walk. 

[Kyle Henderson]

I've got to imagine Augusta is special, but I would need to spend some time playing and walking around with no one around to make a fair judgment.  This is how one truly gets to know the course--a one on one conversation.  The day I had at Crystal Downs was purely a spiritual experience, playing with Mike DeVries then wandering around taking pictures and notes, finishing in solitude upon the edge of the ninth green as the golden sun set over the bluff and Lake Michigan.  It was so profound a moment and day that it actually inspired me to base a studio project on the experience, and I will scan it in full and post it on my site sometime soon.

What I can say is that Augusta may be magical, but the setting could not possibly be a match for the Downs.  Also, with the impact of the Masters, its authenticity to the spirit of the game may not be either.  I would love to get down there and take a walk. 

Playing Crystal Downs with Mike DeVries would be nearly impossible to top, but I really think you two should play Augusta Nat'l together as a comparison before you cast judgement.

Get on that. 

[David Kelly]

Years ago when I first heard about TGC I had such high hopes of what they could do to highlight the architectural side of golf.  What a pipe dream that was.

[Brett Hochstein]

Kyle, I would love to get on that.  No innuendo jokes please. 

I still can't imagine it would be better because of the personal ties to the Downs and Michigan golf we have, but that would be damn cool (or W.F.C. as some may have it  ) discovery time on Augusta National.  I have heard from a few that the most notable thing is the elevation changes on site.  TV doesn't give it, and it is the reason of how important it is to experience courses first hand, which I would do right now exclusively if I had the money. 

[TEPaul]

Ranking golf courses with the criteria of which most golfers would most like to play doesn't have that much to do with the quality of their architecture, but I guess that's just me. 

The point being if many more golfers would rather play ANGC than Crystal Downs, I don't see that is exactly dissing Crystal Down's architecture! 

[George Pazin]

Most Americans prefer American Idol and Fox to TGC - whoops, no more T, now it's just GC.

Debating relative positions within the top 10 courses of virtually any list merely highlights the stupidity of rankings.

(Unless you are comparing Pebble and Oakmont... )

[jeffwarne]

Saw this on The Golf Channel site:

"Two separate national golf magazine recently released two curious lists ranking the nation’s top courses. One ranking, Golf Digest’s “America’s 100 Greatest Golf Courses” began its list as one would imagine: 1. Augusta National, 2. Pine Valley, 3. Shinnecock Hills, 4. Cypress Point, 5. Oakmont.
 
The other, Golfweek’s “Top 100 Classic Courses” had a different spin. Now, we’ve never played Michigan’s Crystal Downs, and we’re sure it’s a wonderful place to spend an afternoon, but at eighth on the list Crystal Downs is two spots ahead of Augusta National. In the name of full disclosure, it must be noted that your correspondent served as a Golfweek rater for nearly 10 years before joining GolfChannel.com.
 
Just a hunch, but if you polled 1,000 American golfers and asked if they’d rather play Augusta National or Crystal Downs, 999 are going to go with The National. We could be wrong."

I've been blessed to play CD a few times and absolutely love the place.  I did a course tour a few years back:

http://www.rsgcincinnati.com/Crystaldowns/crystaldowns.html

How can someone comment on a course they haven't played??
a ridiculous assumption

Of course 1000 people would choose AGNC over Cryatal Downs if they haven't played either.
They've seen AGNC every April for years-most haven't heard of CD.
As another said, they'd choose Doral also.
Also they would take a trip to AGNC for fear they wouldn't get another chance.

A better test- have them play both, then ask them which they would prefer to play again.
or better yet, which course they thought was better.
I love AGNC, but the GC guys are boobs

[Philippe Binette]

Crystal Downs might be closer the Mackenzie original intent than Augusta is... If you ask me where to go to see a Mackenzie course, Augusta wouldn't be the first choice... the course has been played around so much...

Imagine showing a picture of the current 7th green to Dr Mac, his comments would be:
a) Where's that hole?
b) Who did those big white spots around the green
c) Don't ever put my name on that course again...

[TEPaul]

"Imagine showing a picture of the current 7th green to Dr Mac, his comments would be:
a) Where's that hole?
b) Who did those big white spots around the green
c) Don't ever put my name on that course again..."


Phillippe:

I doubt that since the 7th green at ANGC, particularly its green model and greenside bunker scheme was done by Perry Maxwell (sometimes Mackenzie partner) that Maxwell did a number of times.

[BCrosby]

"Just a hunch, but if you polled 1,000 American golfers and asked if they’d rather play Augusta National or Crystal Downs, 999 are going to go with The National. We could be wrong."

Did he just pull back the curtain? These rankings really are just popularity contests?

Bob

[Brad Klein]

My (now former) dentist once offered me considerable free work on my maligned teeth if I could get him 2 weekly tix to the Masters. I don't recall he ever asked or would have begged me to play Crystal Downs. That only proves that ANGC has more cachet value. In any case, I didn't bite.

[Philippe Binette]

Maybe comments b) and c) won't happen from Mackenzie but I doubt he would recongnize the hole... and 16th and some others.

The point is: Augusta has changed so much, could it still be consider pure Mackenzie architecture... maybe or maybe not

[TEPaul]

"In any case, I didn't bite."


Bradley:

You didn't? Well perhaps you should bite by attempting to make your (former) dentist a GD rater. I'm quite sure he would be a valuable addition to the magazine's other 900 raters!   

[Will Smith]

By that rational, MacDonald's is better than In-and-Out or Five Guys. This guy should stick to talking about golf rather than ranking methodology (everyone's favorite subject these days).

Phillipe- Do you think that when Fazio passes away, they will put his name on the course? I love the fact that he oversaw the changes that everyone hates and now he supposedly overseeing the correcting of the errors. It would be like electing W. for a third term

[BCrosby]

A shorter Will Smith -

How many mistakes do you have to make before you forfeit your right to make more?

Bob

[J_ Crisham]

My (now former) dentist once offered me considerable free work on my maligned teeth if I could get him 2 weekly tix to the Masters. I don't recall he ever asked or would have begged me to play Crystal Downs. That only proves that ANGC has more cachet value. In any case, I didn't bite.

Brad,  As a practicing Dentist my hope is that you weren't under duress/treatment when your former dentist tried to squeeze you for tickets. I also hope he didn't ask"Is it safe?" I prefer CD to ANGC personally-much more playable to the average golfer IMO.
                                            Jack

[Brad Klein]

It was a rational conversation in which he actually discussed braces! Dental assistant said later it was the first time he had tried barter in her decade there. But I thought the offer crossed the line of professionalism. And I have crooked teeth to prove it.

[J_ Crisham]

Brad,  I would agree that the above mentioned behavior is unprofessional and bordering on unethical. My guess is there are probably lots of crazy stories out there similar to yours. It would be interesting to see what happpens on Washington Ave outside the gates during Masters week!       
                 Wish you well,   Jack