[Bob_Huntley]

What about Carmel/Monterey?
CPC
Pebble
Spyglass
MPCC Dunes
MPCC Shore
The Preserve
Spanish Bay
Tehama
Pacific Grove

Carl,

Asuming you are staying at the Lodge in Pebble Beach, it is a pretty long drive to The Preserve. I would hazard a guess it would take you about forty minutes to get there. If you took the Google route, which is all wrong, it might be an hour.

I don't think you could put Tehama in with the choices available in the cities previously mentioned.

Bob

[mark chalfant]

Niall,

You make a very strong case for Columbus. However, Philadelphia has at least two excellent modern courses that are both  strong in challenge, design sophistication and variety. Namely, Applebrook by Gil Hanse and Glen Mills by Bobby Weed.

[Norbert P]

  I was a bit off theme when I first read the original thread title of "The Best Golf City in US?"

  I read it as a question of which location has the best golf culture.  In Ireland it could be argued that Lahinch is the finest golf town; or Gullane in Scotland.  

I vote for Fernandina Beach, USA.  They've created a few fine folks.

[mike_malone]

 Scotland Run can be added to the quality public courses within that 1/2 hour of Billy Penn's hat.

    If I lived in Center City Phila. I would seriously consider belonging to Riverton as well.

[Niall Hay]

Niall,

You make a very strong case for Columbus. However, Philadelphia has at least two excellent modern courses that are both  strong in  challenge, design sophistication and and variety. Namely, Applebrook by Gil Hanse and Glen Mills by Bobby Weed.

Thanks Mark, Applebrook by Gil Hanse hadn't been taken into account and I am a big fan of his work. (Can't wait to see his Castle Stuart complete). But are Gil's or Bobby's as "critically acclaimed" or revolutionary as The Golf Club or Muirfield Village? Even as highly ranked as Double Eagle? Merion (awesome) and Aronimink are 2 classics however.

[mark chalfant]

Niall,

In its present form do you consider OSU a Maxwell / Mackenzie course? Has not the Nicklaus design team put their imprint on Scarlet ?.... should it be classified as Golden Age, modern, or hybrid. Are any Ross green complexes left at Scioto ?

In my opinion, Columbus may have the greatest collection of 1965-1995 courses of any city. But it falls way short in the vast expanse of 1920-1965.   

[Niall Hay]

Much like Augusta (and other MacKenzie courses) there has been much "tinkering" with Scarlet and it is probably up to more experienced and wiser experts (are you out there Ran or Tom Doak or Bradley Klein?) on this topic as to whether this course is closer to a JN than the Good Doctor. I know what most people's preference would be....

As previously mentioned above at what level of renovation does a course go from being an authentic/original design by the preceding (original) architect rather than a product of the vision of the most recent alteration? That I cannot tell the answer to you. Same applies for Scioto and Ross....although Aronimink also went through multiple variations in the last decade and beyond yet is still considered a Ross in its present state.

[Cabell Ackerly]

Niall,
The main flaw in your argument is that you give too much credit to the modern courses of Columbus. Double Eagle and The Golf Club are great places, but their respective high rankings have a lot to do with their “timing to market” and relative exclusivity. In my opinion, had either of those golf courses opened up in the 21st century, they wouldn’t be ranked nearly as high as they are now (if at all).

Muirfield Village has always been overrated due to its association with Jack Nicklaus and the PGA Tour.

As for the classics, OSU Scarlet and Scioto don’t hold a candle to the classics of Philly, NY or SF.

[Jason McNamara]

I'd put up Rochester, NY against any similar-sized (just over 950,000K population) city. 

Shoot - Id put it up against against any city outside the top 15 largest in the USA.

Some options outside the Top 15 US metro areas:
              MSP (#16, sorry), St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Columbus, Providence

Moving back into Rochester's weight class, I think you make a better case.  Then you're talking about options such as OKC, Birmingham, RDU, Tucson, ABQ.

[Dan Herrmann]

Jason - fair enough..

For Philly, don't forget the Elverson Trio - Doak' Stonewall old, Stonewall new, and Hanse's French Creek.  Three modern courses that compliment the classics extremely well.

Don't forget to include Hidden Creek and Atlantic City CC.

Public, we've got Lederach, Jeffersonville, Cobbs Creek, Twisted Dune, etc.  It's a great golf scene, especially when you include the Golf Association of Philadelphia.

[Dan Herrmann]

Plus, Philly has the Tom Paul GCA Command Centre!

[Tim Rooney]

Niall, many thanks for your personal observations!The following are suggested Cols' Best: Rosendales(793 N. High St--614-298-1601),Refectory(1092 Bethel Rd---614-451-9774),Barcelona(Whittier&Yaeger--614-443-3699),Lindey's(169 E. Beck St---614-228-4343),Rigsby's(698 N. High St.----614-461-7888)/Steak:Mitchell's(45 N. Third St.--614-621-2333),Eddie Merlot's(Polaris Prkwy--614-433-7307)/Seafood:Ocean Club(Easton Center---614-416-2582).Ken Venturi stated ,during a Televised Tournament, that every major city has a Great Golf Course, however, no city has the Quantity&Quality of Columbus(OH).The following are worthy of note: Ross----Scioto(D.Wilson,Hurdzan/Nicklaus),Columbus CC('64 PGA),Lido(Deaf&Dumb Blind School,AKA Wyandot,AKA Old Elks);Dye----The Golf Club,Little Turtle CC(6 Holes Pete/12 Family);Nicklaus------Muirfield Village,CC of Muirfield,New Albany CC(27),Medallion CC(27);Weiskopf/Morrish----Double Eagle;A.Hills---Tartan East(AKA Winding Hollow),Kinsale GC;R.T.Jones II----Wedgewood CC,Jefferson CC;Mackenzie/Maxwell-----OSU Scarlet(Nicklaus Restoration),Gray;Chick Evans---Brookside CC;J.Kidwell-----Hickory Hills GC(Asst'Hurdzan);L.Watkins------Pinnacle.The Nicklaus/Scarlet restoration provides a current upgrade w/ addit' Length,Bunker enlargement w/Mackenzie Flair,addit' Greensite movement.The #4 Greensite is the most controversial issue, whereas ,unless the 2nd shot is long&perfect, the approach is somewhat blind.As Good the Private Cols Golf the opposite regarding the Public. I've always been enamored w/Philadelphia's stable of "Old Gems", probably the "Cradle" of US Great Golf.Who knows-----I like Vanilla,You like Chocolate?and I like Cols.

[J_ Crisham]

1. Met NY
2. Chicago
3. Philly

Gary,  I live in the Chicago area and have played/seen everything here worthwhile. The little I saw last year in Philly opened my eyes to a whole different level of course. Quite simply, the terrain in Philly is just that much better. Don't misunderstand me , Chicago is definitely top 5 but it's just not the same. For my money Monterey would be my choice with MPCC being tops in the area. Hard to beat the weather year round and a 36 hole complex to boot.                 Jack         

[ChipOat]

Niall,

Instead of wondering out loud if you're picking nits, I think I'll stick with Columbus (possibly) having the most truly excellent courses per capita.  What caught my eye re: your thread is that I've always said the same thing (my way, that is).  Now, if you want to talk about "most truly excellent courses per tax paying resident golfer", then Southampton and/or Pebble Beach must surely be #1.

[Dan Herrmann]

Jack Chrisham,
I'm so proud of you

Actually, you bring up a good point.  We have everything from costal plain to the Piedmont.  The geologic variety is really wonderful.

[Niall Hay]

Niall,
The main flaw in your argument is that you give too much credit to the modern courses of Columbus. Double Eagle and The Golf Club are great places, but their respective high rankings have a lot to do with their “timing to market” and relative exclusivity. In my opinion, had either of those golf courses opened up in the 21st century, they wouldn’t be ranked nearly as high as they are now (if at all).

Muirfield Village has always been overrated due to its association with Jack Nicklaus and the PGA Tour.

As for the classics, OSU Scarlet and Scioto don’t hold a candle to the classics of Philly, NY or SF.

Cabell,
One of the major components of this definition of “best” was that there was a large variety in style of courses in both type, era and design technique. Having the modern courses is essential to the argument. The Golf Club would be highly ranked and well received by the golf course architecture aficionados regardless if the era. Double Eagle has been well received for more than a decade now, surely if there were so many better courses and designs, particularly more recent designs, they would have passed DE in the ranking, ratings, etc. The novelty of a well-manicured course would have worn off by now, especially when that particular feature has never been less relevant to the "experts".

I’m surprised that you are the first person to make the “overrated” and Jack Nicklaus/PGA Tour comment. Muirfield Village not only has evolved over the years to challenge not only the tour player and the huge advances in technology but also remains beautifully playable for their members. If anything the PGA tie in helps with general visibility and notoriety but seldom does that had a positive impact on a golf course by the course critics or experts. (Similar to the direct correlation between a blockbuster movie and one that the critics all love.) If anything the risk of being “exposed” by the remarkably skilled tour player, outweighs the benefit of TV exposure. Additionally and similarly the association with JN helps with the general public’s awareness of the course, but it is not as if JN’s influence has an overly positive impact on critics (and there are many out there of everything the Golden Bear touches).

As for the classics, Scioto is highly underrated and is better than any course in Philly not named Merion (Pine Valley obviously as well, but that is Philly by loose definition). This includes Aronimink (another Ross) and the others. NY and SF have their Winged Foot/Shinnecock and Olympic/SFGC but again the depth and variety are not as great as Columbus. For this argument there needs to be a good sampling of good quality, not just quantity. The hardest region to define is NY Metro as the distance between Winged Foot and Shinnecock/National is as great (maybe not mileage-wise but certainly by realistic driving conditions) as far as Camargo and Inverness are from Columbus by timing. The courses in the immediate NY do not blow away Scioto and Scarlet and adding in the quality of the other immediate local courses Columbus is in good shape. Not only is there good representation of the Golden Era, but also the modern elements (critical criteria for this definition of best) certainly keep Cbus in the discussion. 

Again this is no knock on NY, SF or Philly all who have great courses as much as a compliment to Ohio’s capitol city.

[Niall Hay]

I'd put up Rochester, NY against any similar-sized (just over 950,000K population) city. 

Shoot - Id put it up against against any city outside the top 15 largest in the USA.

Some options outside the Top 15 US metro areas:
              MSP (#16, sorry), St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Columbus, Providence

Moving back into Rochester's weight class, I think you make a better case.  Then you're talking about options such as OKC, Birmingham, RDU, Tucson, ABQ.

MSP is very well represented with Interlachen, Minneapolis, Hazeltine, Minikahda, White Bear, Somerset, Spring Hill, Windsong Farm, etc…good mix of old and new...

[Niall Hay]

Niall, many thanks for your personal observations!The following are suggested Cols' Best: Rosendales(793 N. High St--614-298-1601),Refectory(1092 Bethel Rd---614-451-9774),Barcelona(Whittier&Yaeger--614-443-3699),Lindey's(169 E. Beck St---614-228-4343),Rigsby's(698 N. High St.----614-461-7888)/Steak:Mitchell's(45 N. Third St.--614-621-2333),Eddie Merlot's(Polaris Prkwy--614-433-7307)/Seafood:Ocean Club(Easton Center---614-416-2582).Ken Venturi stated ,during a Televised Tournament, that every major city has a Great Golf Course, however, no city has the Quantity&Quality of Columbus(OH).The following are worthy of note: Ross----Scioto(D.Wilson,Hurdzan/Nicklaus),Columbus CC('64 PGA),Lido(Deaf&Dumb Blind School,AKA Wyandot,AKA Old Elks);Dye----The Golf Club,Little Turtle CC(6 Holes Pete/12 Family);Nicklaus------Muirfield Village,CC of Muirfield,New Albany CC(27),Medallion CC(27);Weiskopf/Morrish----Double Eagle;A.Hills---Tartan East(AKA Winding Hollow),Kinsale GC;R.T.Jones II----Wedgewood CC,Jefferson CC;Mackenzie/Maxwell-----OSU Scarlet(Nicklaus Restoration),Gray;Chick Evans---Brookside CC;J.Kidwell-----Hickory Hills GC(Asst'Hurdzan);L.Watkins------Pinnacle.The Nicklaus/Scarlet restoration provides a current upgrade w/ addit' Length,Bunker enlargement w/Mackenzie Flair,addit' Greensite movement.The #4 Greensite is the most controversial issue, whereas ,unless the 2nd shot is long&perfect, the approach is somewhat blind.As Good the Private Cols Golf the opposite regarding the Public. I've always been enamored w/Philadelphia's stable of "Old Gems", probably the "Cradle" of US Great Golf.Who knows-----I like Vanilla,You like Chocolate?and I like Cols.

Well said and thanks for the recs! I totally agree with Ken....Philly is incredible (Pine Valley and Merion being 2 of my 3 favorite US courses) but the variety and depth of Cbus is special and unique.....

[Tim Rooney]

Niall, forgot (2) addit' Cols Private: Palmer-----Tartan Fields;R.T.Jones,Sr----(Old)Winding Hollow/Champions,Raymond Memorial(Public). I've visited Monterey/S.Francisco, Ireland(x2), Scotland and enjoyed their outstanding Venues; however, (3) of my Top 10 are Cols, with #1 Muirfield Village!I do not understand the Negative comments attached to this Special course and J.Nicklaus!!I'd be surprised if these individuals played and experienced It's many subtleties-----be very interested to learn their real scores?The mention of course/establishment/year negative relevancy is absurd.                                                                                                                   

[Niall Hay]

What are your top 10?And which 3 are in Cbus?

As for your other comments, completely agree. As with anything else involving any level of culture or sophistication it is certainly difficult for those from the coasts and traditional major metro areas (NY, Philly, SF) to believe that there can be an oasis with the quality level as high as anywhere in the country, much less not even in Chicago (another traditional metro and media market). While they will concede that Chicago with its great number of Golden Era courses, it is hard for some to believe that the quality is so high in such an "unusual" or non-traditional location. It must be timing or an anomaly or skewed due to Jack's influence or due to having a PGA tour event. The fact is Columbus is as well represented as any and as far as variety (the initial basis of this discussion) it is unmatched in the American golfing landscape, period. It has the greatest diversity of any major city with the highest level of quality of each era (none with a stronger influence in this argument than any other). As one who is interested in architecture it offers more elite level courses in the most styles (extremely interesting for one with this particular interest) in the closest proximity as hard as that is for people to believe who have not experienced it.

[archie_struthers]

 


Niall , as to Pine Valley not being a "Philly course "  come on, you are really stretching.  Having worked there in my youth and now getting to play there as a fairly frequent  ( and thankful ) guest , it is seriously "Philly" .

The long time Chairman Gordon Brewer is a transplanted southern gentleman but has serious roots in the Philadelphia Golf community . and despite his achievements on the national amateur circuit he has competed for years in Golf Association of Philadelphia events.  Ditto for previous chairman Ernie Ransome, another accomplished player who was and is a great fan of all the Philadelphia sports teams .  Phillies owner Bill Gles is an active golf member , and many of the caddies have been the recipients of free tickets to watch our world champs in action thanks to him.

Reds Bagnell , a great member (deceased ) and a football  legend at the University of Pennsylvania.    As much as Pine Valley is truly an international  club, it is definitely  a "Philly Club "  too.  Many of us can thank the Golf Association of Philadelphia for our education thru the caddy scholarship program (J. Wood Platt Caddy Scholarship ) which is akin to the Evans program in Chi-town .  Enough as I"m sure you will retract your previous statement in the face of all this. LOL!


This being said the third and cleanup hitters on the Philly top nine , Merion and Pine Valley .  might just carry the day in this argument, never  mind the depth of the bench . 

[Niall Hay]

The is no doubt that Pine Valley and Merion are the 2 best US courses in major metro area and as I have previously mentioned, 2 of my 3 favorites.

As for Woody Platt I am very familiar and have had the pleasure of hearing the account of his legendary start at PV of 6 under thru 4 (birdie, eagle, hole in one, birdie) firsthand from his grandson....the best part of the story that he never got to # 5.....I certainly will give you the club has a Philly feel....it is a golfer's nirvana.

[JESII]

.....I certainly will give you the club has a Philly feel....it is a golfer's nirvana.

Did he just say Philly has a nirvana feel?

Truthfully...I could get from the front gate at PV to Center City in about 20 minutes...I don't think I could do it any faster from any of the PA side top 10 in the GAP...

[Niall Hay]

Like Finegan, I should have used "unique haven" in describing PV....not Philly....though it may apply to both!

[mike_malone]

Let's go back to Dan Herrmann's geological ideas. Pine Valley had to be built in Jersey, not Pa. in order to get that turf. It is fascinating how much different the soil west of the Delaware River is from the soil east of it is. We deal with major grass growing problems in the clay filled soil here. While just over the river the sand base is significantly better.

     Niall,

     It doesn't matter that it is another state. If it is within 1/2 hour of the city it is part of that city.

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