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Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Best Golf City in US?
« on: April 05, 2009, 06:16:26 PM »
Columbus, Ohio just may be the best golf city in the United States. It has the best, most varied (both by style and design), collection of high quality golf courses and clubs in the closest geographic proximity of any major city in America. With all due respect to San Francisco (and the Monterey area) and the New York Metropolitan area as well as Long Island, Chicago and Philadelphia all of which have spectacular collections of their own, Columbus has a more varied and better representative group than each of these titans.  None of these cities or areas has the variety of top end golf courses in the same close vicinity. Donald Ross, Alister MacKenzie, Pete Dye, Jack Nicklaus, Tom Weiskopf & Jay Morrish as well as many others all have excellent work in the area.

Scioto Country Club (1916) by Donald Ross is as rich in design and layout as it has in history of great competition. It is not only a top notch Ross design but is one of only four courses that has hosted the PGA, Ryder Cup, US Amateur and the US Open.  Scioto not only was the childhood home of Jack Nicklaus but also where Bobby Jones won his second US Open in 1926.

The Golf Club (1967) by Pete Dye in New Albany is an early Dye at his best and the layout represents one of the few bright spots in a decade that didn’t produce many classics. He produced a course that not only is an awesome test for the player of all levels, but was less manufactured appearing and may even represent the start of a change in the was golf courses were designed, maintained and viewed aesthetically. In short the course is awesome.

Muirfield Village Golf Club (1974) by Jack Nicklaus (and Desmond Muirhead) is his tribute to golf and his own take on Augusta a la Bobby Jones. It represents one of his very best, if not his best, and the conditions, facilities, atmosphere and ability to be tournament ready daily is second to none. It is not only host to the Memorial every year (another Tiger Woods favorite) but it also hosted the Ryder Cup in 1987 and the US Amateur in 1992.

Ohio State Golf Club - Scarlet (1938) by Alister MacKenzie (and Perry Maxwell) is arguably the best collegiate golf course in the country. In an interesting twist of fate, is there any other course in the country that had the site selected and walked over by Donald Ross and the designed by MacKenzie and finished up by Maxwell? It is a brutally difficult course in line with Winged Foot and Oakland Hills for severity, length and overall penal play. Although a bear, it is a wonderful golf course and a great complement to the rest of the areas courses.

Double Eagle Club (1992) by Tom Weiskopf & Jay Morrish is a top 100 golf course and another where the conditions are in the very top of the country.  It is extremely private and like the Golf Club in New Albany many locals in the Columbus area are not even aware of the gem in Galena. 

Beyond the “Big 5” in town there are a great number of wonderful “second tier” clubs like Columbus Country Club by Donald Ross in 1903 and hosted the PGA in 1964, Wedgewood Golf & Country Club by RTJ II in 1991, and Tartan Fields in Dublin by Arnold Palmer to name a few.

With 5 Top 100 quality courses all within 30 minutes, Ross, Mackenzie, Dye, Nicklaus, Weiskopf, mix of old and new style designs, the Bobby Jones history combined with being the cradle for Jack Nicklaus under the tutelage of Jack Grout- it is this authors opinion that Columbus is unmatched by any city in the US. Add to that the fact that Ohio is landlocked, has no real physical features that would make it appealing for potential golf architects and that the weather gives it a limited season it really is amazing that Columbus is as well represented as it is.  Its mixture of different architectural styles, eras and even technologies is unique. The only thing it is missing is a Tillinghast or coastline, but with what it has is something very special. Of course this is an opinion and is my first post and the hope it to create a debate and some healthy intelligent dialogue.


Anthony Gray

Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 06:24:29 PM »


  Naill

  Welcome to the site. How many of those courses are open to the public?

  Anthony


Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 06:27:57 PM »
Thanks Anthony, sadly none of the above mentioned Big 5 courses are public, but they are accessible if you really make an effort via local members, your local golf pro or even people in this discussion group.

Mark Luckhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2009, 06:28:26 PM »
Have you been to and played all the gems in the Met area?  What about around Socal, those are some classic older tracks there too.  

Columbus can hang with the big boys, but to say it is #1? I will say the clubs there may be truly underated, but they just can't hang with the Met area. My point is proved, when you mention no Tillinghast. The other areas mentioned are flooded with them. Even Cleveland has a Tilly(Lakewood CC).

Chicagoland wasn't brought up either. In my humble opinion, it is second beyond the Met area for Quality tracks.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2009, 06:37:58 PM »
No doubt NY has some incredible courses, Winged Foot and Baltusrol are 2 of my very favorites and the Long Island group of SH, National and Maidstone are incredible, but they are a long way from WF or Baltusrol. Again, as much of the argument for Columbus was for the variety of classics and modern.

Chicago was mentioned and with Chicago GC, Shoreacres (my favorite) and Medinah it certainly presents a fair challenge to Columbus but they also are pretty spread out (especially with Chitown traffic) and they lack many really good "modern" designs other than maybe Black Sheep.

Same applies for SoCal, no doubt LACC, Riviera and Bel Air (Thomas Trio) are excellent, but where are the great courses after the Golden Age? And LA distance and traffic may rival Chicago's and so the proximity argument applies...Shady Canyon maybe?

I'm certainly open for the debate, Columbus just isn't one that normally comes to mind with the big boys....like SF, NY, Chicago or Philly.....Ohio is very well represented with Camargo and Inverness as well.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2009, 06:40:36 PM »
Sorry, I meant Rustic Canyon....not Shady.

Andy Troeger

Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2009, 06:50:26 PM »
Niall,
I haven't seen most of the other cities that would be considered, but I would guess I might disagree. OSU Scarlet post-renovation was exceedingly disappointing to me. Nicklaus made it a brutally difficult championship style course--very narrow with trouble on both sides most of the time. Have you played it in the last couple of years? I think others know whether the work was at all sympathetic to their original work.

Double Eagle, for a top 100 course, wasn't as good as I expected either. It is immaculate and the front nine has some great holes, but the back doesn't stand up to some of the other courses mentioned.

On the flip side, The Golf Club and Muirfield Village are both fabulous--TGC makes my top five and MV my top ten. Lots of good stuff at both facilities. Wedgewood in Powell is a very nice RTJ Jr. design that's worth playing as well. Worth noting, but I doubt that it's #1 as a city.


Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2009, 07:00:34 PM »
I certainly agree with MV and TGC as excellent golf courses (both in my top 10 as well) and also think that Scioto is in that general class.

Some liked the renovations at Scarlet and others obviously did not. It was hard before and it still is....

The logic is not simply based on adding up a list of the city with the most "highly ranked" golf courses (obviously are large metro are like NY would win in a landslide) within an hour drive as much as one that has a huge variety of playing options at a quality level unique to a city that is not as large population or geographically. It is also important for this argument that the courses really be close and not just by mileage but by the time it takes to get from one to the other. The fact that Columbus can "hang" in the debate with such powerhouses as NY, SF, Philly and Chicago says a lot for the quality of the courses in Cbus.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2009, 07:16:49 PM »
Columbus may win it on a "per golfer" basis, but "more ....etc." than NY, Phila, Chicago, or SoCal in absolute terms?

The numbers just don't add up.

I've played 4 of Columbus' Big 5 (not Double Eagle) and they're all excellent.  But there's only 5 of them.  NYC has 10+ of comparable caliber; Philadelphia 6-8 depending who you talk to.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2009, 07:31:04 PM »
No doubt NY and Philly have awesome courses. But do you really have 10 courses within 20 minutes of the city (Manhattan)? As previously mentioned of course Winged Foot and Shinnecock/National are awesome, but WF is 20-30 best case scenario getting there, Shinnecock and even Bethpage can take 90+ minutes, by that same logic you could count Inverness and Camargo as within the set geographic area and even include Cleveland area courses.  I would challenge you to name the 10+ courses within 30 min of each other that are in the same league at Muirfield Village, The Golf Club, Scioto, etc. Same thing with Philly, Merion (in my top 3) and Pine Valley (my # 1) and Aronimink are great, but getting from PV to Merion takes a while even though it is not very big distance. Its the concentration that makes Cbus unique along with the variety in ages and styles. Where are the "modern" courses in NY metro or Philly? Even SF or LA?

Kyle Harris

Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2009, 07:33:40 PM »
No doubt NY and Philly have awesome courses. But do you really have 10 courses within 20 minutes of the city (Manhattan)? As previously mentioned of course Winged Foot and Shinnecock/National are awesome, but WF is 20-30 best case scenario getting there, Shinnecock and even Bethpage can take 90+ minutes, by that same logic you could count Inverness and Camargo as within the set geographic area and even include Cleveland area courses.  I would challenge you to name the 10+ courses within 30 min of each other that are in the same league at Muirfield Village, The Golf Club, Scioto, etc. Same thing with Philly, Merion (in my top 3) and Pine Valley (my # 1) and Aronimink are great, but getting from PV to Merion takes a while even though it is not very big distance. Its the concentration that makes Cbus unique along with the variety in ages and styles. Where are the "modern" courses in NY metro or Philly? Even SF or LA?

Philly Cricket, Manufacturers', Lulu, Huntingdon Valley and Philmont are within 20 minutes of each other. Add another 5 minutes and you get Whitemarsh.

That's:
Flynn (2)
Tillinghast
Ross
Willie Park, Jr.
George Thomas

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2009, 07:36:27 PM »
No doubt NY has some incredible courses, Winged Foot and Baltusrol are 2 of my very favorites and the Long Island group of SH, National and Maidstone are incredible, but they are a long way from WF or Baltusrol.



How wonderful to see an opinion that isn't often seen here.  Variety is the spice of life.  Only hope that you don't get lambasted for having an opinion that is in the very small minority on this board.  Of course you will, but hopefully with respect.  Oh that might be wishful thinking.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2009, 07:42:45 PM »
Kyle, all are great and the architects are obviously the masters of their day. Hence the Philadelphia School. But are there any from the 60's, 70's, and even 90's?  Part of how the word "best" beyond being an opinion was the variety of styles and ages that are represented.

Cbus has 2 classics (Scioto, Scarlet-though some would argue its been changed but so has Augusta), as many as 8 Donald Ross in the area, a Dye (good one), Jack's best....and potentially the best courses of their respective decades with The Golf Club for the 1960's and Muirfield Village for the 1970's.

Also, I love Philly and its courses, but most (if not all) of the great courses are from the Golden Age.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2009, 07:47:42 PM »
Thanks Cliff, as you can see am open to debate. If I had wanted to agree with everyone I would have picked  one of the cities everyone thinks of immediately....that's too easy....I'm getting pretty worked over, but the debate is what is important, not convincing everyone on the board that my opinion is correct. Hoping this is the point of the group...open, intelligent debate, no offense taken...

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2009, 08:02:11 PM »
Nice post but the time limit you impose is somewhat daunting for a MAJOR metropolitan area to compete against.

Aronimink and Merion are within 10 minutes of each other. Driving across the Schuylkill River from Merion to get to Whitemarsh and Cricket- Wissahickon is within 20- 30 minutes. Add another 15 minutes from Whitemarsh to Manufacturers and Lulu and poof, by jove, you've got it. From there to Philmont and Huntingdon Valley is another 15 minutes or so.Throw in Commonwealth(Palmer) near Manufacturers, Cricket-Militia Hill(Hurdzan-Fry) and White Manor(Weed) near Aronimink  and you've got 3 "moderns."  By the way, an early tee time at Merion and the  trip across the Delaware River to Pine Valley is very doable in June for a double header. That trip alone tops any  2 course combo in Columbus.

You mention access. For some, it's not as easy as you make it sound. Most of the clubs mentioned require accompanied play.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2009, 08:08:13 PM »
Totally agree that Philly probably represents the best case against Cbus. It is remarkable golfing city and couldn't argue against it be the # 1 overall.

Understood as far as access goes, but it is all relative. It seems as though the majority of the courses discussed in this forum seem to be on the exclusive/hard to get on side. Pine Valley, Cypress Point and Augusta are perfect examples....access there makes Columbus look positively municipal....

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2009, 08:12:33 PM »
Steve, Let's not forget another Philly hidden gem that you hear very little about because of it's very private nature- Gulph Mills. Some great Donald Ross.  The 4th at GM is one of the great short holes in golf. Hard to argue with Philly for concentration of great courses. Haven't played anything on the public side there but the privates are heaven.
                                               Jack
                                     .  

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2009, 08:14:41 PM »
How could I forget Gulph Mills and its unique architectural history? ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2009, 08:18:34 PM »
Steve,  The difference between Columbus and Philly could be that you may gain access by a pleasant phone call to an asst. pro in Columbus. I don't see this happening at PV, Merion, HV, Gulph Mills,  etc.  Just my thoughts, Jack
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 08:24:56 PM by Jack Crisham »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2009, 08:21:51 PM »
No doubt NY and Philly have awesome courses. But do you really have 10 courses within 20 minutes of the city (Manhattan)? As previously mentioned of course Winged Foot and Shinnecock/National are awesome, but WF is 20-30 best case scenario getting there, Shinnecock and even Bethpage can take 90+ minutes, by that same logic you could count Inverness and Camargo as within the set geographic area and even include Cleveland area courses.  I would challenge you to name the 10+ courses within 30 min of each other that are in the same league at Muirfield Village, The Golf Club, Scioto, etc. Same thing with Philly, Merion (in my top 3) and Pine Valley (my # 1) and Aronimink are great, but getting from PV to Merion takes a while even though it is not very big distance. Its the concentration that makes Cbus unique along with the variety in ages and styles. Where are the "modern" courses in NY metro or Philly? Even SF or LA?

Philly Cricket, Manufacturers', Lulu, Huntingdon Valley and Philmont are within 20 minutes of each other. Add another 5 minutes and you get Whitemarsh.

That's:
Flynn (2)
Tillinghast
Ross
Willie Park, Jr.
George Thomas

Dear Kyle,

Don't you mean:

Flynn (3)
Tillinghast
Ross
Willie Park, Jr. (0)
George Thomas

Sincerely,
A. Karff

 ;) ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2009, 08:48:00 PM »
Steve,  The difference between Columbus and Philly could be that you may gain access by a pleasant phone call to an asst. pro in Columbus. I don't see this happening at PV, Merion, HV, Gulph Mills,  etc.  Just my thoughts, Jack

You're 100% right Jack!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2009, 09:55:33 PM »
Niall Hay,

The little town of West Orange, NJ may have the city of Columbus beat.

And, are all of those clubs you listed within Columbus's city limits ?

West Orange has:

Crestmont                      Ross
Essex Fells                     Ross
Montclair   (36)               Ross, Banks, Bendelow
Essex County (36)          Bendelow, AWT, Ross, Findlay
Rock Spring                     Banks

And, they had another course on the same street as Montclair and Essex County that NLE.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2009, 10:09:19 PM »
Niall Hay,

The little town of West Orange, NJ may have the city of Columbus beat.

And, are all of those clubs you listed within Columbus's city limits ?

West Orange has:

Crestmont                      Ross
Essex Fells                     Ross
Montclair   (36)               Ross, Banks, Bendelow
Essex County (36)          Bendelow, AWT, Ross, Findlay
Rock Spring                     Banks

And, they had another course on the same street as Montclair and Essex County that NLE.

West Orange does indeed have a remarkable collection of golfing gems. But are there any clubs of those that were designed on the last 50 years (variety was a prerequisite of this definition of "best")? No doubt all good courses and an excellent collection of Ross designs but are any considered world class or best examples by the architect? Columbus has 4 in the top 100 for Golf Digest (although I know not the definitive ranking/rating) and again they are all kinds of courses. That said, I really need to get to West Orange!

Last thing, as far as being in Columbus city limits, I don't think any are. What is amazing is that they are all in the suburbs and none is more than 20 minutes from any of the other. 

Great response though.....love where you're head is at!

Andy Troeger

Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2009, 10:13:57 PM »
Niall,
I think you're being a bit generous (or a speedster!) if you can get to/from the Columbus area courses in 20 minutes. Double Eagle, Muirfield Village, and The Golf Club are all out north and/or east, but I don't think I could get around to them that quickly! Scioto and Scarlet are both in Columbus itself.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Best Golf City in US?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2009, 10:21:26 PM »
Yeah, I think of Scioto and Scarlet as being in Upper Arlington and not sure if that is legally in Columbus or not. Even at roughly 20 miles from there to The Golf Club in New Albany (farther away than Muirfield in Dublin) you get there in less than 30 minutes. With Ohio police you are probably right Andy!

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