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Dan Herrmann

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Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« on: April 05, 2009, 08:22:31 AM »
Thought you might find this interesting - a front 9 tour of Cypress Point. 

http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/03/cypress-point-front-nine/

Could this be the world's most beautiful golf course?

Jim Adkisson

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 08:42:04 AM »
I love the soundtrack...sounds like something from the Condor Club in the late 70's!

CP is one of the gems.

Paul Jones

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 09:10:33 AM »
It is amazing how great the Par 3s are on the front nine, but hardly ever talked about because of 15 and 16.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Mike Wagner

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2009, 12:41:01 PM »
Outstanding...I LOVE the front 9. 

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 09:00:27 AM »
I love the soundtrack...sounds like something from the Condor Club in the late 70's!

CP is one of the gems.

I was thinking classic 70's porn... Debbie Does Cypress.  Both Debbie and Cypress are stunning!

Will Smith

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 11:06:24 AM »
The music is John Scofield with Martin, Modeski and Wood. A very good album.

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 12:55:42 PM »
The music is John Scofield with Martin, Modeski and Wood. A very good album.

"John Scofield toured with the avant garde jazz trio Medeski Martin & Wood. The group, known collectively as MSMW toured extensively worldwide in 2006 and 2007, with sporadic engagements planned through 2008."

Impressive to reinvent yourselves twenty five years after a decade of porn soundtracks.   :D

Brian Freeswick

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2009, 07:12:32 PM »
Isn't commenting about the music on that site like reading Playboy and commenting on the advertisements?  ;)

I've had the pleasure of playing CP twice and you really gain a much better appreciation of the front 9 the 2nd time you play it. BWT #5 & #6 are just fantastic par 5's!

Jason McNamara

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2009, 07:42:22 PM »
Will -

Am getting a msg saying I need Vimeo plus (owner hasn't given embedding permisson...).  Looking fwd to finding out which Galactic song you picked for the other nine, though I would have thought Brubeck a better match for the Monterey Peninsula.  Maybe you're saving him for SF itself.

Metheny for Sand Hills / Ballyneal / Prairie Club?  The CD he did with Charlie Haden?

Jason

Will Smith

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2009, 10:12:51 AM »
Jason- I checked the site and it seems to be working OK. Send me a message if you are still having trouble. Can you see the logo at the top of the page? I can on my computer but not on my wife's.

I try to have fun on the music. Normally, its stuff that I listen to when I am in a machine building bunkers  or greens.

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2009, 10:20:08 AM »
Jason- I checked the site and it seems to be working OK. Send me a message if you are still having trouble. Can you see the logo at the top of the page? I can on my computer but not on my wife's.

I try to have fun on the music. Normally, its stuff that I listen to when I am in a machine building bunkers  or greens.

Just having fun with the music too.  The video is great... I have watched it four times.  Now that I think about it... the music is more like the soundtrack to a Charlie Brown special.  Great stuff and thanks for sharing!!

Ted Kramer

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2009, 10:27:31 AM »
Feel free to bash . . .

I think the bunkers at Cypress Point are awful.
They simply do not match the landscape.
They are so out of place that I'd describe them as visually offensive.
All those "squiggely shapes", with very "definite edges" look so incredibly un-natural.

-Ted

Tom Huckaby

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2009, 10:33:41 AM »
Ted:

Others have made that contention re CPC's bunkers.

And I shall not bash; I shall just say that even if I agreed with you (which I don't, I think the bunkers at CPC work just fine) I'd contend that it takes nothing away from the incredible joy that comes from playing there.



TH

Ted Kramer

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2009, 10:39:35 AM »
Ted:

Others have made that contention re CPC's bunkers.

And I shall not bash; I shall just say that even if I agreed with you (which I don't, I think the bunkers at CPC work just fine) I'd contend that it takes nothing away from the incredible joy that comes from playing there.



TH

I have no doubt that golf at CPC is incredible.
But it is interesting to me that a course often mentioned as "top few in the world" would have bunkers that "work just fine".

-Ted
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 10:41:21 AM by Ted Kramer »

Tom Huckaby

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2009, 10:43:15 AM »
"Work just fine" was in response to your contention that they are visually offensive.

I find them to be visually just fine.  But then again I don't care all that much what bunkers LOOK LIKE, I care a lot more how they effect the play of the golf hole.  So "just fine" is really all that matters.  In terms of scenic beauty, they neither add nor detract, I think.  The ocean, dunes and other surrounds handle that quite well.

But more importantly, in terms of how they effect play, well they fit in quite nicely with whatever ranking one feels is right for the course... which for me is unquestionably top 3 in the world.

TH

Jason McNamara

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2009, 11:41:16 AM »
Jason- I checked the site and it seems to be working OK. Send me a message if you are still having trouble. Can you see the logo at the top of the page? I can on my computer but not on my wife's.

Yeah, can see the rest of the site fine.  Got the video to load using IE, so may have been a Firefox glitch, at least accdg to a very cursory Internet search.

[/quote]I try to have fun on the music. Normally, its stuff that I listen to when I am in a machine building bunkers  or greens.[/quote]

Recommend Abercrombie-Scofield "Solar" and Metheny-Scofield "I Can See Your House from Here"

Thanks!

Anthony Butler

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2009, 11:47:19 AM »
Feel free to bash . . .

I think the bunkers at Cypress Point are awful.
They simply do not match the landscape.
They are so out of place that I'd describe them as visually offensive.
All those "squiggely shapes", with very "definite edges" look so incredibly un-natural.

-Ted

Ted,

I agree with you here. On the web site, they encourage you to look at Shackelford's book to reference the original views of the holes... From the video posted, my one round there in 1994, and Shackelford's book, Cypress Point appears to have lost some of its natural appeal.

As a member at a Mackenzie course that went through the rebuilding of his bunkers, I remember how clearly it was communicated to the membership the bunkers were being revetted specifically because maintaining the bunkers in the state in which they were originally designed was making it impossible to keep the sand in them.

Even then, there was considerable disagreement within the membership on the wisdom of these changes until a year or so had gone past. It was duly noted the sand covering in the bunkers was more consistent, allowing the crew to direct more attention and resources to the playing surfaces on or around the greens.

Even though the possibility of returning the bunkers to the Mackenzie 'look' still present at RM and some holes at Kingston Heath has been effectively eliminated, we went from 5th to 2nd ranked course in Australia and moved from the second 50 to 34th in the world rankings within 7 years. At the same time, many of the members thought it was important to maintain the overall wild naturalistic look of the course, since the side-by-side comparison to the immaculate playing surfaces provides much of the aesthetic interest–beyond the staggering ocean views of course. :o

The 'renovations' at CP don't seem to have changed the depth of the bunkers or the playing characteristics of any hole to a noticeable degree. What reason was provided to the members for ruining the aesthetics of the course, when it does not result in an improvement of playing conditions in the long term? If Cypress Point had a larger local member base, the discussion may have been a little more vigorous on this topic. That said, the areas away from the greens look relatively untouched.

Taking photos of the course in the middle of the day doesn't show Cypress Point in it's best light either.
Next!

Tom Huckaby

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2009, 11:51:16 AM »
Anthony:

Do you really believe the aesthetics of the course have been "ruined"?

And if so, do you base this on photos or have you seen it in person?

I ask only because I have been fortunate to play CPC quite a few times over quite a few years.  I find the aesthetics as great today as they ever have been; said aesthetics being at the very top of all courses I have ever played.

But then again as I said to Ted, the look of bunkers doesn't mean all that much to me.  Maybe therein lies the answer.  I can understand that for those for whom the look of bunkers is important, the changes have great meaning.  But man if one can play the golf course and tell me it isn't aesthetically wonderful, even as is today... that to me shows a hyper-focus on bunker details that I will never really understand.

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2009, 11:58:29 AM »
Maybe am example will help my understanding.

Here is a pic I took last Friday - standing above 9 tee looking toward 13 green (a common tourist money shot).



Those bunkers on 13 received a tremendous amount of work; they would have to be prime examples of what you and Ted are getting at.

Are the aesthetics in that view SO BAD due to the bunkers that all joy is removed? Is 13 ruined as a golf hole?  Is the view from 8 no longer worth stopping to note?

See that is what I don't get. WHATEVER those bunkers are, in terms of how they play they remain unchanged... and to me, in terms of what they look like, well... I am pretty much looking beyond them in terms of aesthetics.

So am I crazy?


BTW in case it matters.. here is an amateurish photo shot from about 100 yards short of 13 green.  Are those bunkers really so awful that this golf hole sucks?


« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 12:03:56 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Anthony Butler

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2009, 12:44:05 PM »
<b>Tom, obviously, you would have to move Cypress Point from it's current location to ruin it's aesthetics. </b>
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Tom Huckaby

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2009, 12:52:37 PM »
<b>Tom, obviously, you would have to move Cypress Point from it's current location to ruin it's aesthetics. </b>



I definitely agree.

But then why did you write this:

What reason was provided to the members for ruining the aesthetics of the course

???


Anthony Butler

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2009, 01:04:50 PM »
Anthony:

Do you really believe the aesthetics of the course have been "ruined"?

And if so, do you base this on photos or have you seen it in person?

I ask only because I have been fortunate to play CPC quite a few times over quite a few years.  I find the aesthetics as great today as they ever have been; said aesthetics being at the very top of all courses I have ever played.

But then again as I said to Ted, the look of bunkers doesn't mean all that much to me.  Maybe therein lies the answer.  I can understand that for those for whom the look of bunkers is important, the changes have great meaning.  But man if one can play the golf course and tell me it isn't aesthetically wonderful, even as is today... that to me shows a hyper-focus on bunker details that I will never really understand.

TH

Tom,

Obviously you would have to move CPC from its current location to ruin its aesthetics. While standing on the 15th tee at CPC, I turned to my playing companion and said "If there is a heaven and it looks like this, you have my permission to hit me over the head with that 9 iron in your hands" 

We are effectively discussing restorations to the Sistine Chapel here. That said, every time you change something you either improve it... or you do the opposite.

As mentioned, I have not set foot on CPC since 1996, but I do have Shackleford's book open on my desk. While the Punchbowl Boys most likely skipped the photography elective at Yale, you can't dispute how phenomenal the course (and in particular the front nine) looks in Shackleford's book.

Even though bunkering is not your major interest, it makes a difference in the eyes of many. Take another short hole, in this case the 15th at Kingston Heath. Without the bunkers it is simply an uphill semi-blind shot with an 8 iron. With the addition of Mackenzie's bunkers it is one of the great sub-150yd holes in the world.

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Tom Huckaby

Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2009, 01:08:11 PM »
Anthony:

Fair enough.  "Ruins the aesthetics" - and the extreme statement that makes - is what threw me off.

Change that to "decreases my visual enjoyment" and we have no issues; you likely see that as more of a decrease than I do, but at least I don't think you're insane.

 ;D

In any case my point remains the LOOK of bunkers is to me far less important than the function of them; that is how they effect play.  But I also understand that the look matters a lot more to others.  And that too is completely fair.

TH

Kalen Braley

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2009, 01:11:53 PM »
Tom,

Those pics are awful...why would anyone want to play at a unnatural looking dump like that..  ;D

More pics of the bad stuff.   ;)











« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 01:20:24 PM by Kalen Braley »

Anthony Butler

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Re: Cypress Point - Front 9 Tour
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2009, 01:27:35 PM »
Anthony:

Fair enough.  "Ruins the aesthetics" - and the extreme statement that makes - is what threw me off.

Change that to "decreases my visual enjoyment" and we have no issues; you likely see that as more of a decrease than I do, but at least I don't think you're insane.

 ;D

In any case my point remains the LOOK of bunkers is to me far less important than the function of them; that is how they effect play.  But I also understand that the look matters a lot more to others.  And that too is completely fair.

TH

Not sure when Kalen took his pictures, but I assume they are post 2007. With all due respect to Will Smith, it does make a difference when you know how and when to use a camera on a golf course.

With respect to my insanity, you'll have to check with my wife. In my defense, however, you should be aware my first post on this thread came just minutes after I had finished throwing up in my mouth after reading the Greg Norman/Chris Evert lovestory in this week's Sports Illustrated.

http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,1889891,00.html

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