[Tony Ristola]

as the 7th Course at St. Andrews...

And a public course as well.

What would folks say about the course and the architect?

The Road hole, would it be recognized as great architecture?

Would it ever be recognized as great architecture or would it be vilified as being the architectural rantings of a lunatic who tried to throw all manner of design ideas into one pot?

As an aside, how much land would have been bulldozed today had the property been offered as a site?

.

[Anthony Gray]

  Tony,

  Excellent topic. In rating TOC you just cannot escape the history. Not many modern courses could get by with that many blind tee shots. The 17th green may be deemed unfair for its lack of depth. And with a handfull of par 4's that are close to drivable the lack of length may be critisized.

  Anthony


 

[Philippe Binette]

it would be genius... it is genius... architecturally speaking... for rentability, it would probably won't work

[Anthony Gray]

it would be genius... it is genius... architecturally speaking... for rentability, it would probably won't work

  I have no idea what this means. Philippe please one more time in the queen's english.

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony,

Given the location, it would probably work.

But, imagine exporting a replica of TOC to a new site far removed from St Andrews.

Unless is was marketed as a replica of TOC I believe it would be altered after the first season.

TOC is in large part  protected by "The Soul of Golf"
A new course would enjoy no such immunity.

And,  to take your question a step further, if TOC was a private course, especially in the U.S.  I don't think you'd see much left after the first decade.

[Philippe Binette]

it would be great architecture... but it might not be popular

[Niall C]

Philippe,

Would it be considered great architecture ? I seriously doubt it, too unconventional, too quirky, too many blind shots etc.

I am of course thinking of the course playing in an anti-clockwise direction. A good question might be would the course be played this way or the other way if it was built exactly as it is now ? Imagine if the architect/construction company handed it over to the client without any plans or indication as to the layout, which way do you think it would be played ?

One thing that can be said for certain is that no architect with any intelligence (for that read fear of being sued) would sign off on the plans for how the course is now. For one thing the 17th alone would raise so many legal issues with adjoining ownerships ie Old Course hotel, that it would be impossible to play if the owners of the hotel decided they had had enough of golf balls flying through bedroom windows.

Also, some of the shaping would provide safety issues not only for greenkeeping staff on machines but also for golfers playing the course.

Niall 

[Adrian_Stiff]

It would be considered rubbish. Driving over a corner of a hotel, double greens, crossing holes, blind drives, blind bunkers, tees backing into other holes, the last hole in the middle of town, a road a couple of yards off a green, greens with impossible slopes, bumps infront of greens, double fairways, holes where the better line is on another hole.

Thank god it is already there!

[Neil_Crafter]

without the Old Course to set the example, architecture today would not be the same. Architects that were influenced by TOC, such as CBM, Mackenzie, Colt etc etc, would not have had its influence at just the right moment in their careers. Golf and golf architecture would have been irreparably altered. Accordingly, it would not be received well if built today.

[Philippe Binette]

perception is reality... nobody here would dare to consider it great... (key word: consider) but on the ground it is great architecture.

Here's a question, should gorse be removed from in front off the tees at The Old Course?beause I doubt there would be as many blind holes if the gorse was taken out.  Would it make the course better? more intimidating now that you would see some part of the trouble?

[JNC Lyon]

perception is reality... nobody here would dare to consider it great... (key word: consider) but on the ground it is great architecture.

Here's a question, should gorse be removed from in front off the tees at The Old Course?beause I doubt there would be as many blind holes if the gorse was taken out.  Would it make the course better? more intimidating now that you would see some part of the trouble?

I don't know how many modern golfers really have that much of a problem with blind tee shots.  I haven't played the Old Course, so I can't comment on the blind nature of the tee shots.  However, when I played Garden City this summer, I was struck by how many blind tee shots there were.  At least 8 or 9 of the 15 non-par three holes presented semi-blind or blind tee shots, and most were due to the high fescue grass between the tee and the fairway.  Did this make the course worse?  Absolutely not.  In my mind, it made the course very distinctive, particularly in the world of American golf.  I had to rely on the advice of my caddy and my playing partners who had played the course before.  If I played the course again, I would know where to hit without advice, but I would also be more worried about the trouble lying ahead.

Should the Old Course remove fescue to limit blind tee shots? Probably not.  It would take some of the mystery out of the course that everyone says makes the course so great.  It certainly wouldn't change the shots you have to hit.

[Mark Bourgeois]

In todays culture of instant gratification, the inaccessibility of its architecture would have led to misinterpretation and thus to "improvement."

Nice insights, Neil. And Niall not only would the course not be built today, Mackenzie wrote 90 years ago that it wouldn't have been built then, either - albeit for reasons of architecture not aggressive lawyering.

Mark

[Ian Andrew]

Doesn't Rustic Canyon have a strong following despite being on average land.

[Marty Bonnar]

I do tire of the reverence given to TOC. I still contend that she's an old bitch who deserves some respect but has been easily bettered by more recent breeders.

History apart, it's time that people possessing proper judgement were heard. I've played her more times than most GCAers, (apart from a few obvious exceptions) and I can assure those of you who haven't had the pleasure that all you're missing is the 'history'. She's a grand lesson, but I'll bet you've played better, properly designed grounds for golf. GOOD MODERN golf architecture concerns itself with playability, environmental protection and decent conditions for the playing of our favourite game. Admirable and unquestionable goals.

The blindness, the occasional blandness, the unremitting tight lies and reliance on the ground game of TOC are in the end as stifflingly dull as any American airgame parkland. Golf is about more than 600 years of history. Sure, that has a place, but we have Jazz, Rock and Pop as much as we have old, new and other alternatives.

Golf courses don't deserve reverence. People, actions and responsibility in the real world do.

FBD.

[Anthony Gray]

  Marty,

  Calling TOC an "old bitch" is like..............................................................................





   some of the best journalism I've seen on this site. She may not be what she once was but she has her place in history.


   Anthony

[Marty Bonnar]

Then again, I may have no idea what I'm talking about. Sometimes, when I'm missing Kavanaugh the most, I just say things here to elicit responses...
FBD.

[Kalen Braley]

MArty,

I'll give you about a week until your GCA.com membership card is revoked for spewing such heresy!!   

While I"ve only seen the cranky old lady on TV, i've been saying for years that a hole like 17 if built today would get panned by pretty much everyone, so I've never understood the double standards when it comes to things like that.  Quirk is quirk in my mind and while modern quirk tends to get written off, ODG guy quirk is embraced..go figure!!

[Niall C]

Here's a question, should gorse be removed from in front off the tees at The Old Course?beause I doubt there would be as many blind holes if the gorse was taken out.  Would it make the course better? more intimidating now that you would see some part of the trouble?

Philippe,

Great question. I don't know exactly what effect removing the gorse in front of tees would have, but I strongly suspect your right in saying that it would remove a lot of the blindness which to my mind could only be a good thing.

Having a blind shot because of the lay of the land is one thing but to have a blind shot because of the vegetation in front of you is just perverse. Frankly it smacks of poor maintainance. I can't imagine the course was originally laid out playing over gorse.

Niall

[Rich Goodale]

Niall

The outward side of the course was ALL gorse before they cleared it in the mid-19th century to widen the playing field.  The blindness is mostly due to the hillocks in front of the tees--that a few gorse bushes sit on top of those hillocks is just Mother Nature asserting her authority.

Rich

[BCrosby]

Counterfactuals are a wonderful way to tease out historical causation issues.

What if there had never been an Old Course? How would the history of gca be different?

Great question.

Bob

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

without the Old Course to set the example, architecture today would not be the same. Architects that were influenced by TOC, such as CBM, Mackenzie, Colt etc etc, would not have had its influence at just the right moment in their careers. Golf and golf architecture would have been irreparably altered. Accordingly, it would not be received well if built today.

From what I have seen of the work of the "golden age" architects, the influence TOC must have had on them was to NOT  design holes like that.

[Bill_McBride]

I do tire of the reverence given to TOC. I still contend that she's an old bitch who deserves some respect but has been easily bettered by more recent breeders.

History apart, it's time that people possessing proper judgement were heard. I've played her more times than most GCAers, (apart from a few obvious exceptions) and I can assure those of you who haven't had the pleasure that all you're missing is the 'history'. She's a grand lesson, but I'll bet you've played better, properly designed grounds for golf. GOOD MODERN golf architecture concerns itself with playability, environmental protection and decent conditions for the playing of our favourite game. Admirable and unquestionable goals.

The blindness, the occasional blandness, the unremitting tight lies and reliance on the ground game of TOC are in the end as stifflingly dull as any American airgame parkland. Golf is about more than 600 years of history. Sure, that has a place, but we have Jazz, Rock and Pop as much as we have old, new and other alternatives.

Golf courses don't deserve reverence. People, actions and responsibility in the real world do.

FBD.

I had no idea you were so full of BS.  Jeez.

[Rich Goodale]

Bill

You forgot your       

Marty deserves more respect, particularly since he is in the right on this issue.  One does learn lots of things from playing and studying TOC, by many of them are of the category "what not to do."  There ARE cool little things that are constantly revealed, but they become littler and littler over one's lifetime.

By all means enjoy TOC, but do not fall into the trap of revering it "just because."

Rich

[Ted Kramer]

It would be considered awful.
And I'm shocked that anyone would actually think otherwise.
That is why popular opinion means so little to me with regards to golf and gca.

-Ted

[Gary Slatter]

Niall

The outward side of the course was ALL gorse before they cleared it in the mid-19th century to widen the playing field.  The blindness is mostly due to the hillocks in front of the tees--that a few gorse bushes sit on top of those hillocks is just Mother Nature asserting her authority.

Rich

A lot of gorse was removed this winter.  It did not cause many blind shots but did blind a few dogs on Sundays.  and annoyed the low ball hitters playing the forward tees (we Links ticket holders).

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