Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?

[Carl Nichols]

My two cents....  I ran an upscale daily fee in Stafford, VA from 1997 to 2001 with a Japanese owner who insisted we keep the carts on the paths.  With a high slope and rating you can imagine what we went through on a daily basis to keep it 4:40 or faster.  I lived pace of play for 5 seasons... charts and graphs and the whole nine yards.

Roger:
If you ran the course I think you're talking about, I can imagine that you had pace-of-play issues to think about.  I played a lot of golf there in the mid-90's; the key was to get as early a time as possible, though that was pretty difficult.

PS:  Lou Duran is absolutely correct that a fast player will play faster with a cart -- there's just no question about it, and such players solve any inefficiencies resulting from having two players in the same cart.  I suspect that those same inefficiencies could make riding slower for certain already slow players, especially if it's paths only, but those guys are gonna be slow anyway.

[Sam Maryland]

Lou,
Golf is a tough business.  People make lots of investments that don't work out with all the right intentions and expectations.  I asked a simple question of whether carts make a good return for clubs on the cart leases and on the paths.  I was looking for facts on cart returns not questions.
Do you know the answer?

In 2006, our last full year open (that's shocking), we spent $50,400 on a cart lease with a maintenance contract.  Cart revenue was $256,000.  If you allocate electricity and cart staff labor the revenue far outweighs the expense.  Cart path construction for 18 holes was around $350,000 and the cart barn was around $400,000 so even allocating depreciation doesn't even come close.  We considered removing our cart paths but felt it was unfair to our elderly, infirm, out of shape members and their guests to lock the carts in the barn every day it rained the night before.  I understand this at places like Bandon and Whistling Straits or even a new private club just opening.  But removing cart paths at an established club is really tough on the old, existing membership (unless, of course, the secret plan is to get rid of them or to preserve your course when it is wet and vulnerable).

Charlotte Country Club recently did just that, removed the cart paths.  Will be interesting to see how it plays out given the backdrop of the current economy.

[John Shimp]

Roger,
Thanks.  Glad to know we have a big profit center in that. 

[Carl Johnson]

There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.

There absolutely is a question.  Indeed, unless a course has excessive green to tee distances I think you are flat out wrong.  But that's for a different thread.

Generally I'm on your side, Mark.  Another situation (beyond the excessive green to tee issue) in which carts might be faster for a particular group, however: hilly course and golfers in poor physical condition (I'm not talking physical disability, such as a heart condition).

[Roger Wolfe]

There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.

There absolutely is a question.  Indeed, unless a course has excessive green to tee distances I think you are flat out wrong.  But that's for a different thread.

Generally I'm on your side, Mark.  Another situation (beyond the excessive green to tee issue) in which carts might be faster for a particular group, however: hilly course and golfers in poor physical condition (I'm not talking physical disability, such as a heart condition).

Hey!  I resemble that remark!!   

[SM Johnson]

The industry has to change its thinking.   Clubs need to at least offer times when members can walk.   We have to encourage players to play golf the "way" they wish to play.  It makes little sense for clubs to spend $millions on Health & Fitness Club then require golfers to ride in a cart.  Walkers actually play faster than riders.  The 3-wheel "push" cart is easy to use, has a place for a sand bottle, and an umbrella "holder" so you can open your umbrealla (protect from sun or rain).   This is a great way to play golf.      Charge a minimal fee, or an annual 'push cart' fee just like club storage, or add $X's to the annual club stoage for annual use of the 3-wheel cart.  I like the one golf course super's comment that he is for anything that keeps the E-Z-Go's off of the turf.   Go to Scotland and see how quickly you will play the Old Course walking.  The Scot's play much quicker and spend more time in the 19th hole as a result.

[Scott Henderson]

Our family played at Bandon last November.  If we had not been using pull carts I (age 62)would not have been able to play 5 rounds in 3 days (only 1 on Saturday), and my wife would not have been able to play at all.  I too believe that the "average" walking foursome will normally play faster than the "average" riding foursome.

[Tim Bert]

Eric - I believe you owe me royalties for the use of that photo.   

[Brent Hutto]

I've observed two things about walkers vs. riders.

1) If carts are allowed on the fairways, two people in a cart can play faster than walkers and one person in a cart can play much, much faster than a walker.

2) The slowest groups on a course of mixed walkers and riders are always riding in carts.

I've seen singles in carts finish a round in 1:40-1:45 on a housing-development course that you couldn't jog around any faster than that, never hitting a shot. And I personally have played nine holes in under an hours shooting 50-something and holing out every putt, the first summer I ever played golf. There is no faster way to play golf than as a single on an empty course driving on the fairways.

So basically carts make fast players faster and slowpokes slower. I posit that every group of golfers has a pace at which they "want" or expect to play their round and carts (on fairways) provide the opportunity to extend that range in either direction versus just plodding along at a walking clip.

P.S. Carts on paths only is so slow and infuriating (on most course layouts) that I can't see how anyone ever has the patience for it. There's often more total distance walked by a cart-paths-only rider than by a walking golfer, especially for a double-digit handicapper who is not a straight hitter. I frankly find the quite common arrangement of both "carts only" and "no walking allowed" idiotic as it benefits no one and creates a pace of play nightmare.

[Dan Herrmann]

I have an observation from Thursday.

Laura and I went out for a quick post-work 9 holes.  Started on the 10th hole.  Saw a twosome in a cart on the 9th tee and we decided to go for it, but play quickly (walking).

The guys in the cart ended up playing the back 9, but we never held them up.  And our back nine has a long walk between the 15th green and 16th tee due to wetlands preservation. 

We complete our loop in 1:30 and go to have a drink at the bar.  Turns out the guy behind me was a friend with a guest.  My friend couldn't believe we were playing so fast.

Now, if I, walking at 49 and with much weight, can keep in front of a 5-handicapper and his friend in a cart, ANYBODY that's reasonablly healthy can do so.

This walking vs riding thing just doesn't work out in the real world.

We Americans need to act more Scottish and get our tails in gear, and if a tricycle cart helps, so be it!

[Roger Wolfe]

I have an observation from Thursday.

Laura and I went out for a quick post-work 9 holes.  Started on the 10th hole.  Saw a twosome in a cart on the 9th tee and we decided to go for it, but play quickly (walking).

The guys in the cart ended up playing the back 9, but we never held them up.  And our back nine has a long walk between the 15th green and 16th tee due to wetlands preservation. 

We complete our loop in 1:30 and go to have a drink at the bar.  Turns out the guy behind me was a friend with a guest.  My friend couldn't believe we were playing so fast.

Now, if I, walking at 49 and with much weight, can keep in front of a 5-handicapper and his friend in a cart, ANYBODY that's reasonablly healthy can do so.

This walking vs riding thing just doesn't work out in the real world.

We Americans need to act more Scottish and get our tails in gear, and if a tricycle cart helps, so be it!

Come on guys... this is a personal issue.  You cannot say "guys in carts" vs. "me walking."  A lot depends on your own individual style of play.  With carts on the fairways... I can ride and play 18 twice as fast as I can walk 18.  Its not even close.  Now I have members at my club who I can beat for 18 holes if I walked and they were alone in their own cart on the fairways.

But saying walkers are faster than riders... please.  You need to think about your OWN style of play.  Are you faster walking... or riding on the fairway?  Answer that for me.

[Carl Nichols]

Roger:
You're exactly right.  A lot of people -- including me -- play faster with a cart than when they walk because they are very quick (in all respects) over the ball, and so the walk in between shots slows them down considerably vs. riding.   

[Mike McGuire]

Different culture across the pond. My brother in laws caddie used a pull cart at Portmarnock.

[Sam Maryland]

Mike,

My caddy used one at Royal County Down.  Pull/push/motorized walking carts seem to be embraced in Northern Ireland, and at the very best courses.  We need to get our head out of our asses on the issue here in the US.

And in general, clearly on a wide open golf course any number of players can play faster in a riding cart, no doubt.  But to me the issue is whether or not during the course of normal play do walkers slow down the course, I'd argue they don't.  JMO.

[Carl Nichols]

Mike, Sam:

The same is true down here in Argentina; if you own a cart and use a caddy, the caddy will push/pull your cart.  When I show up at certain courses *without* a cart, I get some funny looks from the caddies.

[Stewart Abramson]

My club has always encouraged walking. I'd estimate that about 15% of our rounds are walkers who carry their bags, 35% are riders and 50% use push carts (trolleys). My experience is that unless there is only one rider in a cart, the walkers almost always play a  faster round. Typically, when there are two players in a cart they drive to the first player's ball and the second player sits in the cart and doesn't go to his ball until after the first guy hits, cleans his club puts it back in his bag, fixes his divot and gets back in the cart and then drives to the second guy's ball. By then each walker has already gone to his ball and hit (or is ready to go.)  Walkers at our club usually play ready golf simply going straight to their ball and hitting it. Riders don't because they want their bag with them rather than taking a bunch of clubs off the cart and carrying them ahead to their ball. Also, riding carts are not allowed within 30 yards of a green so the riders spend time walking back and forth to their carts while the walkers just go the straight route. When we play a four ball with two walkers and two riders, inevitably the walkers are waiting for the second guy in the cart to hit and the riders rarely wait for a walker. I note that our teeing grounds are close to the preceding greens except for one hole. Riding would be faster on courss where the tees are distant from the preceding greens.

This morning we were the second group out. The first group was a twosome: the club champ and another scratch golfer. Two of their regular playing partners didn't play because of the bad weather. They usually walk, but rode today I assume because of the rain. Their foursome often plays just ahead of us and both  groups play  between 3 Hrs 40 min and 3 hrs 55 min. The club strongly encourages all rounds to be sub 4 hrs. When any of us play as a twosome and get out first in the morning we play in less than 3 hours walking.   Today my foursome played in 3' 40" . The riding twosome  played in 2' 55"... no faster than they would have played had they walked.  We took approx 355 strokes collectively. The twosome I'm sure took less than 155 strokes.  I know this is not scientific, but my experinece tells me that in most cases, at least at our club,  4 walkers are not slower than 4 riders.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

As Shivas Irons said in Golf in the Kingdom, "The gemme is meant for walkin' "



In the USA, the game is meant for revenue.

[Joe Hancock]

As Shivas Irons said in Golf in the Kingdom, "The gemme is meant for walkin' "



In the USA, the game is meant for revenue.

In many cases, you're correct. But, I assume that you wouldn't be first in line to develop and operate a golf course with an anticipated ROI of zero, correct?

Joe

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The game has lost its way. Don't you get upset when you see teenagers and young healthy adults riding carts on the course? I realize that developing a new course is about money and that running an existing course is about money. The culture of golf should include walking. In the USA, it no longer does- for the most part. Those private clubs and public courses that encourage walking should be commended. Getting back to the topic, pull/push carts or trolleys should and can be encouraged. As far as private clubs in the USA are concerned, there is still a stigma about their use which, hopefully, is being lessened and can be used for income if creatively done.

[Joe Hancock]

Steve,

We're in agreement.

I'm lucky enough to be able to visit some very good private clubs. It always amazes me as to how uncomfortable the whole private club/ caddy/ protocol thing is for me, even after exposure. I think it must be my blue collar upbringing along with growing up on a lower end public course. I didn't, and still don't need much to enjoy golf.

Joe

[PThomas]

perhaps someone can explain to me how PUSHING a cart that weighs at least 15 pounds - which is how much some/most/all? of these new push carts weigh - is easier than me PULLING around my cart like i did yesterday that weighs 2 pounds at the most

[Joe Hancock]

perhaps someone can explain to me how PUSHING a cart that weighs at least 15 pounds - which is how much some/most/all? of these new push carts weigh - is easier than me PULLING around my cart like i did yesterday that weighs 2 pounds at the most

I can't imagine why you need anyone to explain anything. If pulling is easier for you, then pulling is easier for you. Or am I missing something?

Joe

[Stewart Abramson]

"perhaps someone can explain to me how PUSHING a cart that weighs at least 15 pounds - which is how much some/most/all? of these new push carts weigh - is easier than me PULLING around my cart like i did yesterday that weighs 2 pounds at the most"

I think its the third wheel and the inflated tires in place of  the solid wheels. With a sun mountain or bag boy 3 -wheeler you can push it with one finger.  I don't know anyone who has tried a 3 wheel push cart that would go back to a 2 -wheel pull cart. Either type is pretty easy though.

[PThomas]

"perhaps someone can explain to me how PUSHING a cart that weighs at least 15 pounds - which is how much some/most/all? of these new push carts weigh - is easier than me PULLING around my cart like i did yesterday that weighs 2 pounds at the most"

I think its the third wheel and the inflated tires in place of  the solid wheels. With a sun mountain or bag boy 3 -wheeler you can push it with one finger.  I don't know anyone who has tried a 3 wheel push cart that would go back to a 2 -wheel pull cart. Either type is pretty easy though.

thanks Stewart...i will have to give it a try sometime

[Rob Rigg]

Paul,

The three wheel push carts, even if they weigh 18 lbs plus bag, are much easier to handle than the pull cart in my experience.

The ergonomics of a push cart are much better and although uphills can be tough, they are way easier than a pull cart trying to rip your arm and shoulder off.

The clicgear 2.0 I use it great, I would highly recommend it.

Whether you push a cart or pull one, at least you are playing golf the right way!