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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2009, 12:57:20 PM »
Pete,
If you can't shape a shot, the tee shot on #13 might be considered awkward but if that is the case then wouldn't every dogleg with any trouble around have that awkwardness for someone.  Otherwise, #13 is a very inviting tee shot.  I guess the second shot can be considered awkward but so can any shot from an uneven stance. 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2009, 11:01:25 AM »
I guess the second shot can be considered awkward but so can any shot from an uneven stance. 

Precisely my point!

...St. Andrews not only presents awkward lies and stances, but some awkward strategies, too ... fairways that narrow to nothing just where you would normally drive it, bunkers where you sometimes can't get a stance, etc.

I wonder if Tom or others might expand on this.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2009, 12:22:23 PM »
Mark,

what I meant by flat piece of land was a blank slate without any landscape, basically the designer decides everything (Dubai type of stuff) ... not a flattish site. It also means man cannot create nature variety.

Isn't there a 20 feet drop off the 4th tee at Pinehurst no2...

The elevation change at the Old Course must be 15 feet... I mean the swale in front of the 5th green is 10 feet deep... 

Damon Groves

Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2009, 01:26:48 AM »
I think awkwardness does yield graat some great golf holes. They force us to do things we are not comfortable with and search for the options until we find what works for us. Some of my favorite holes are the quirky ones that many times were built due to the land constraints.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2009, 09:40:05 AM »
I guess the second shot can be considered awkward but so can any shot from an uneven stance. 

Precisely my point!

...St. Andrews not only presents awkward lies and stances, but some awkward strategies, too ... fairways that narrow to nothing just where you would normally drive it, bunkers where you sometimes can't get a stance, etc.

I wonder if Tom or others might expand on this.

George

I will give you two great examples.

The 17th at Pennard.  A blind drive up and over a crest to a fairway running hard right and pinching tight at the driving zone for many and certain perdition if one goes too far right.  The perdition aspect is very harsh because one can actually land the ball in the middle of the fairway and still lose it right.  To top it off, the further one tries to cheat left, the more difficult the second is because after the fairway abruptly turns right it is a very narrow target to hit from a perpindicular angle.  I used to dislike this hole, but now I admire just because its awkward and sets up differently from the previous holes which are really about wide open hitting with better angles to be achieved.  This is one of the most awkward holes I know of and on a course full of awkward situations with wonky lies.

The 10th at St Enodoc.  I used to admire the hole only because it is awkward, but now I think it is a great hole.  Off a high tee there is a large mound right where one wants to drive it.  A player can shape his tee shot to the VERY narrow part of the fairway sliding left around the mound, but there is a creek running the length of the hole over there and the fairway runs hard toward it.  Any drive left directly behind the mound has no chance to reach this par 4 which is invariably what most do in laying up.  For those who have gone slightly left there are three options.  1) Lay up and trust the up n down skills. 2) Take aim at the left edge of the church and hit a gawd almighty hook as the terrain feeds to the green, but it doesn't really like the ball could ever move that far left and many fear oob in the church yard.  3) Go over the top of the trees and down the creek line.  This is a wonderful hole among a handful of great holes, but I probably prefer this one most of all because so many think it should rightfully be a par 5.  I spose they think this because the decision-making required on the tee and for the second is similar to what a good reachable par 5 requires only here most are fighting to earn two points with a shot.

Nearly all great courses need some awkwardness and controversy.  It would be interesting to see a list of great courses without awkwardness or controversy.  It would indeed be a special list.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2009, 10:16:55 AM »
Thanks for the examples, Sean. The 10th at Enodoc sounds fun, but it also sounds like a hole that would draw out the whiners. :)

I'd guess that any awkwardness at great courses tends to be overlooked or even praised by the same folks who complain about it elsewhere.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2009, 09:37:11 PM »
Rich,
Variety and uncertainty are much better words. 

Mark, I think that several years ago you said it about as well as anyone: "[A.K.] Taylor sent a reminder toward the future that the nuances of the undulating land as as much a part of the challenge of golf as anything else."  Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazzards," Richardson & Fine, 2006, bottom of page 11.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2009, 10:06:51 PM »
Did anyone else notice that Tom Doak wrote:
"I am going to interview for a new job last week and will see if they'll let me build an awkward course like St. Andrews.  It's about time someone did."

Is that an intentionally awkward response...going to and last week?
Coming in 2024
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2009, 10:56:02 AM »
Ronald,

I noticed it too and was certainly hoping there would be a follow-up to that but haven't seen one yet.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2009, 12:11:07 PM »
Well, that was more awkward than I intended ... the interview was yesterday.  I think our odds of getting the job are good, but I don't know if the client will go for "deliberately awkward".  Which is not all that surprising.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2009, 01:20:25 PM »
I think making pros feel akward psychologically during tournament play is a key element of Pete Dye's design at places like Whistling Straits and TPC Sawgrass (based upno second hand experience) vwhich were designed for the specific purpose.

The akward lies found in the fairways of Ballyneal help the course to challenge the skilled players but also provide them a chance to show off their talents. Clearly they can cope with a hanging lie better than most, and that will show on the scoreboard.

In terms of a hole being place akwardly across a landform due to a poor course routing and/or difficult site, I would not consider awkwardness a key component of great golf architecture.
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is awkwardness a key element of great land/great golf?
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2009, 01:26:02 PM »
Tom,

Is the land naturally suited for a TOC type course of would you try your hand again at working with something like you had for the Rawls Course?