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Garland Bayley

The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« on: April 03, 2009, 03:16:13 PM »
I posted the GD criteria on the GD top 100 thread.

What would our criteria be?

I would make the design variety be the most important criteria. One of the ODGs said every hole should present a new problem to be solved.

Another criteria would be the Redan criteria. It is my understanding that the best two shots are a high fade, and a ground hook using the terrain. A hole would be rated by near optimal approach shots. Most holes would get credit for the contemporary pro shot, high and straight (also the shot attempted by high handicappers that have nothing else in their tool set). A hole can only get credit for one straight shot. The Redan would get two more credits for the two shots identified above. A green sitting in a saddle might get credit for each of running it in from the left and the right. Etc. Many of you will note that there may be many flaws in this idea, because it is brand new and I haven't thought it out much.

The Mucci deep fog criteria. Aesthetics don't count.
The Huckaby light fog criteria. Aesthetics count, but not that much.

The numerous outcomes criteria based on the number of different type of recoveries that would be the best choice for each type of miss. E.g., if you miss a green at Shinnecock, and the only thing that can happen is you end up in a bunker, it only scores one. I guess the prototypical score of one for this category would be the 17th at Sawgrass. I don't care how much fun you have seeing the pros sweat, it's still a bad hole.

ETC. Don't make me sweat. Propose your own!
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 12:35:44 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Rob Rigg

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 03:24:19 PM »
Great thread Garland.

One of the elements that is most important to me is the blending of architecture and aesthetics in a way that creates excitement in the golfer.

- Is the course natural?
- Did the architect force his hand on the land or use it subtly?
- How well does the course fit into the natural environment?
- How much strategy did the architect get out of the land available?
- Is it playable for the scratch golfer and the bogey golfer?
- Is the course built responsibly (from an environmental standpoint)?
- Is the course built to be walkable which maximizes the golfing experience?

I think there will be some diverging views in the weighting of criteria across this discussion group :)

Ronald Montesano

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 03:27:51 PM »
Rob,
The "natural" saw only cuts so deep.  Some golf courses are built on average to bad land, while some regions simply have better land than others.  The architect may need to force her/his hand on the course more in one region/on one piece of land than at another.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Garland Bayley

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 03:37:28 PM »
The green to tee walk. Deduct one point for each walk uphill in excess of the number of downhill walks.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 03:46:57 PM »
Was it designed by a gca favorite, even if you have never seen it?  Add 10 points

Designed by Fazio, Rees, etc., but have never played it? Subtract 1,549,034,987,204,847 points........
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 03:49:51 PM »
Please ignore Jeff everyone, and let us know what you value.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

rjsimper

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 03:50:22 PM »
Frilly/Ragged bunkers...add 100 points.

Tom_Doak

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 03:52:18 PM »
Garland:

I did this once for Ran, a long time ago.  I think my list had 65 different criteria.  All you had to do was figure out which of those things was worth how many points, and you'd be all set!

Richard Choi

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 03:54:56 PM »
So, can we see the list?

Tom_Doak

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 04:28:40 PM »
Richard:

I just spent a few minutes looking for that list, to no avail, although I stumbled on some other old writings that I hadn't looked at for a long, long time.  I know I mailed a copy to Ran so if he has it in HIS files, he's welcome to post it.

It included every aspect from green-to-tee walks to TYPES of approach shots rewarded to aesthetic considerations.  Above all, my criteria reserved points for originality -- which is very hard for most people to judge, you have to have seen a LOT and understand the time line of what influenced what.  Ran, of course, disagreed with that completely and relied entirely on his gut reaction ... but most people's guts are not that reliable.

Tim Gavrich

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 05:18:13 PM »
According to apparent general group sentiments...

Deduct big points for each forced carry (the ground game must be encouraged at all costs!!!)

Deduct points if there is not at least one eminently drivable par 4 (I agree with this one, for the most part).

Deduct points if the greens derive any of their interest from being fast, rather than pronounced contour.

Deduct enormous points if the golf course is difficult/unrealistic to walk.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Garland Bayley

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 05:22:50 PM »
According to apparent general group sentiments...

Deduct big points for each forced carry (the ground game must be encouraged at all costs!!!)

Don't you think the Redan criteria encourages the ground game enough?

Deduct points if there is not at least one eminently drivable par 4 (I agree with this one, for the most part).

Don't you think the design variety encourages at least one driveable 4?

Deduct points if the greens derive any of their interest from being fast, rather than pronounced contour.

Deduct enormous points if the golf course is difficult/unrealistic to walk.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Fine

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 05:42:29 PM »
Garland,
Nice effort but a near impossible task to list "set criteria". 

For a number of years, ten of us including Ran M., John M., Tom Doak, and myself shared our Top 250 lists.   Most of us had played or seen the far majority of the perceived top courses in the world so it was a fun exercise to see/compare each others ratings.  We used our own criteria to judge the courses and listed a number using the Doak scale.  It was quite interesting in that we were all very much in agreement on most all of the golf courses we reviewed.  It was rare to find more than a one point difference in most of our ratings.  Believe it or not, Ran was able to list his Top 250 "in chronological order"   :o  I think John could do this did as well.  How they did it, I will never know  ;D  I would be willing to bet if we compared our Top 500 lists, Ran would be able to say what was #467 and why it was a little better than #468!  Amazing!!!

We never shared our lists publically so don't ask   :-X
Mark

Garland Bayley

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2009, 05:50:13 PM »
Garland,
Nice effort but a near impossible task to list "set criteria". 
...

I was hoping to have people come up with creative ways of saying what they valued. E.g., the Mucci criteria.

I have no intention of using any such set of criteria to rate courses.

I was hoping those that disagree with others would share what they value, not make cynical statements about their perceptions of what members here value.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 06:10:03 PM »
Garland,

Sorry, sure not trying to piss you off.  You've mentioned my post twice now!

But, isn't it already clear that whatever criteria agreed upon by the merry band here (used or not) would have its own bias?  If you are focusing on, say a Redan or a driveable par 4 as adding points, is that not skewing the results?  Everyone has their bias, no matter how you set the criteria.

I know GD has tried to get ever more mathmatical and using more categories, precisely on the belief that if someone is asked to judge, say "resistance to scoring" they won't let the ambiance of a famous course get in the way on such a focused effort.  And yet......

I have done that kind of criteria ranking for my own designs.  Whenever I have mentioned that, its "formula" but when Ran or someone does it, its a "better attempt at ranking."  But, besides that, its just a never ending battle. You keep breaking it down further and further, and just like discussions here, its hard not to keep from thinking of he exceptions that prove the rule.

I think its an interesting excersise though.  My own personal rating take would be to start with a system like you propose, but do the final rating on gut after some number crunching narrows it down.

BTW, I think you have sort of crossed from galaxys to planets when you mention "Variety" as a criteria vs "Redan".  Variety is a big picture issue we could all agree with, I think. A redan is a type of hole. If you include a certain type of hole as a "must have" then it really does become a Seth Raynor formula, no? 

I would put variety at the top of my list, too, and ask myself if the course had play variety, difficulty variety, and aesthetic variety.

For aesthetic variety, a course like CP would rank higher than Spyglass because the hole backdrop/settings revolve around rather than being 5 beach, 13 woods.

Difficulty variety would mean a variation in how hard holes are.  Length could be a start, but hazards would have to go in there, too.

Play variety, or design interest would have to be subdivided, too, into "shot concepts" and "feature concepts."  I prefer courses that suggest a lot of different shots.  But, I also prefer courses that have a lot of different features.  When designing, if I have ten holes with fw bunkers, I take a look at making each of those different in a lot of ways.  For play it might be carry, flank, pinch etc. For looks, I would vary small and big, clusters and singles, etc.  It would be hard to rate courses on as little as a 100 point system!  1000 points (50 for each hole and then 100 intangible points?) might be better.

Probably every gca has tried to do the similar deal, as evidenced by TD and his attempt, even after (I think) running the Golf Magazine on a formula free basis and trusting the "gut reaction" of knowledgeable raters.  If I misconstrue that, I am sure Tom will gently correct me!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2009, 06:14:50 PM »
Garland,
Wouldn't the list of criteria be extremely loooong!  Furthermore, I don't know why people would "disagree" with others criteria as this is a very subjective process.  There is really no right or wrong, only personal opinion!  We will NEVER get to a paint by numbers criteria where everyone should come up with the same end result.  It is not possible!  The one thing I will say is that it does help to see a lot of really good golf courses to establish a sound baseline.  If everyone is working off a similar baseline of course exposure, the results tend to be reasonably close.  The exercise I mentioned above proved that (and as I said, none of us shared our rating criteria).  For all I know, Ran's main criteria might have been the score he shot   ;)  Just kidding  ;D  
Mark

Mark_Fine

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2009, 06:16:51 PM »
Jeff,
I just saw your post.  I think we kind of said the same thing!
Mark

Garland Bayley

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2009, 07:22:00 PM »
...
BTW, I think you have sort of crossed from galaxys to planets when you mention "Variety" as a criteria vs "Redan".  Variety is a big picture issue we could all agree with, I think. A redan is a type of hole. If you include a certain type of hole as a "must have" then it really does become a Seth Raynor formula, no?
...

Boy I must be a lousy writer if that's what you got out of it. Silly me, I thought they were both variety criteria. My Redan criteria was composed to be the opposite of GD shot values, which I see as a lack of variety criteria. However, since I have not been to their seminars I can only read the words on the page and not learn how to avoid them. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Herrmann

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2009, 07:38:41 PM »
Garland,
I'd put use of angles as a key success factor.

Others (in no particular order)
Greens of varying sizes
The "journey" factor - does your round feel like a strategic journey?
The "memory" factor - can you recall each hole a day after your round?
The "quirk" factor - is there at least one hole that makes you scratch your head, only to have you 'get' it a week or two later?
The "fun" factor - does the course bring a smile to your face a month after you've played it?

Tim Gavrich

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2009, 09:17:37 PM »
According to apparent general group sentiments...

Deduct big points for each forced carry (the ground game must be encouraged at all costs!!!)

Don't you think the Redan criteria encourages the ground game enough?

Deduct points if there is not at least one eminently drivable par 4 (I agree with this one, for the most part).

Don't you think the design variety encourages at least one driveable 4?

Deduct points if the greens derive any of their interest from being fast, rather than pronounced contour.

Deduct enormous points if the golf course is difficult/unrealistic to walk.
Garland--

Not quite sure what you mean, exactly.  I think the Redan template is a great one; #8 at the Old White is a fantastic hole.  I personally think that the occasional aerial attack is a good thing in golf course architecture, and I feel like holes that encourage shots through the air are often disparaged.

And I quite like drivable par 4s and believe that they are important in design variety.  That is Yale's only real weakness as a golf course, in my opinion.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Andy Troeger

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2009, 10:07:41 PM »
Its too bad "shot values" is so poorly understood. Its intended to be a strategic category dealing with risk/reward situations and having a balance between length, accuracy, and the short game. I'm not sure how that's really all that controversial, but it is misunderstood (and probably by some panelists as well).

Garland,
I agree that design variety is the most important category out there, at least on the GD criteria. I wish we doubled that one instead. Memorability is an important one in my mind as well, even if its pretty subjective.

I've shared this opinion before, but I think "resistance to scoring" works, but ONLY if "playability" is also included to balance things out.

Garland Bayley

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2009, 11:47:03 PM »
According to apparent general group sentiments...

Deduct big points for each forced carry (the ground game must be encouraged at all costs!!!)

Don't you think the Redan criteria encourages the ground game enough?

Deduct points if there is not at least one eminently drivable par 4 (I agree with this one, for the most part).

Don't you think the design variety encourages at least one driveable 4?

Deduct points if the greens derive any of their interest from being fast, rather than pronounced contour.

Deduct enormous points if the golf course is difficult/unrealistic to walk.
Garland--

Not quite sure what you mean, exactly.  I think the Redan template is a great one; #8 at the Old White is a fantastic hole.  I personally think that the occasional aerial attack is a good thing in golf course architecture, and I feel like holes that encourage shots through the air are often disparaged.

And I quite like drivable par 4s and believe that they are important in design variety.  That is Yale's only real weakness as a golf course, in my opinion.

My Redan criteria adds points/credits to the evaluation for making  an approach by ground an important possibilty. Therefore, you statement that ground game should be encouraged ties into that.

Secondly, if a course has variety, then it should have driveable par 4(s).
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2009, 11:55:50 PM »
I have been trying to name another criteria. The best I come up with is the
Tommy Naccarato room to manuever around critera. If you must have a unmissable hazard, i.e., once the shot starts in that direction, it won't miss the hazard. E.g., the Pacific Ocean on PB 18, then you get an extra point for every 10 yards of fairway beyond 30 yards opposite to the hazard up to a limit of 4 such points. Small hazards on the opposite side that will not require any player to play short and add more than 20 yards to the next shot do not negate the bonus.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2009, 12:05:59 AM »
Any chance you write the manuals for VCRs Garland? ;)
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Dave Givnish

Re: The Golf Club Atlas rating criteria
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2009, 10:10:59 AM »
Add to Dan's rules - the "used" club rule
At the end of the round, how many of your 14 (I know that for some this would be 18 or so) clubs did you use?  Higher numbers count better, and all 14 get a bonus. 

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