Golf Digest International Rankings

[Robin Doodson]

The Australian superintendents' championships are at Barnbougle?  That's cool.

It may belong at #20 outside the USA, but the only reason it's ranked ahead of Royal Melbourne (West) is because most of the rest of this list is whacked.

Sorry Tom, official Super's championships is at Royal Hobart but there is a delegation of about 40 supers going to Barnbougle prior to our annual conference in Tassie. BD is the main reason that we are all going. Any tips for me. (other than dress warm).

robin

Robin,

My advice would be to try to convince Tom to meet you guys down there so he could give a talk to you about the design.

Now that is icing on the cake.

Brian

That is a great idea. leave it with me.

[Leo Barber]

Amazed and somewhat disappointed that Paraparaumu Beach has been kicked from 65th spot two years ago to not even making the list.  I think the raters of today are besotted more by hype and who is hosting them as opposed to world class architecture and a truely great golf course.  I think perhaps the credibility of this list was tested several years ago when Russley Golf Club from NZ was included at about 68th(?).

Will stick to the "has ranked as high as 71 in golf digest magazines list of the worlds greatest golf courses" for future marketing!!!  The sad thing is this is the only thing these kinds of lists are good for because I simply don't believe they reflect what their true intent should be.

[Brian Phillips]

I remember when a company that I owned shares in had the rights to the Golf Digest magazine.  Golf Digest just sent us an email for us to just list the Top ten courses in Norway.  The CEO did that and hey presto the list was born...just a joke.

No integrity from Golf Digest at all.

[Carl Nichols]

Tom:

I have played Olivos in Argentina and really liked two of the three nines there.  It's #1 on my list of Argentine courses right now, but I haven't played the Jockey Club yet.  I do know several people who prefer it to the Jockey Club. 

But that doesn't mean there should be *any* Argentine courses on this list.  In fact, although my experience in GB&I is limited, it would surprise me if there weren't a bunch of unlisted courses in GB&I (and perhaps Australia, NZ, and other places) that are better than Olivos and many of the courses in the bottom 50.  My general reaction to the list was that GD (and/or the raters) wanted to have a geographically diverse list, so made sure to include courses from a bunch of countries. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy:

There is no way they have 40 votes on Barnbougle Dunes or Ellerston, to name two.  They probably don't have ten on Ellerston.  I am guessing they somehow incorporate their associated publications' rankings into these, but I don't know how they do it.

 Tom, The same ranking system is used.  The number of votes is much less.  I think it is somewhat akin to the number needed for "best in State" which I think is ten or fifteen.

[Philippe Binette]

maybe the maintenance problem at Royal Melbourne cause the course to fall down the rankings... weren't the greens in trouble last year

[Wayne_Kozun]

From a Canadian perspective it is shocking that Jasper is not on the list - it is generally thought of as superior to Banff which is on the list.

And having Fox Harb'r on the list is a joke - I have not played it but I doubt that it belongs in the top 50 in Canada.

[Niall C]

Tommy:

There is no way they have 40 votes on Barnbougle Dunes or Ellerston, to name two.  They probably don't have ten on Ellerston.  I am guessing they somehow incorporate their associated publications' rankings into these, but I don't know how they do it.

Just taking South Africa as one example, these rankings [Leopard Creek #1, then Gary Player CC, Fancourt, Durban #4, no Humewood] are COMPLETELY at odds with the reports from Ran, Ben & the group that was just there.

There are about ten courses toward the bottom of the list which seem out of place, at least based on anything I've ever heard.  Has anyone here ever played any of the following?  Are they worthy of a list like this?

G de Moliets, France
Shensan International, China
Olivos, Argentina
Fox Harbor, Canada
Oarai, Japan
Limburg, Belgium
Monte Rei, Portugal
Vista Vallarta (Nicklaus), Mexico
Santa Elena, Philippines

Haven't played the Monte Rei course in Portugal but know a few people who have and its considered better than San Lorenzo. That may be why it made the list, or alternatively it might have something to do with how heavily advertised it was last year in the golf mags.

Niall

[Emil Weber]

Tommy:

There is no way they have 40 votes on Barnbougle Dunes or Ellerston, to name two.  They probably don't have ten on Ellerston.  I am guessing they somehow incorporate their associated publications' rankings into these, but I don't know how they do it.

Just taking South Africa as one example, these rankings [Leopard Creek #1, then Gary Player CC, Fancourt, Durban #4, no Humewood] are COMPLETELY at odds with the reports from Ran, Ben & the group that was just there.

There are about ten courses toward the bottom of the list which seem out of place, at least based on anything I've ever heard.  Has anyone here ever played any of the following?  Are they worthy of a list like this?

G de Moliets, France
Shensan International, China
Olivos, Argentina
Fox Harbor, Canada
Oarai, Japan
Limburg, Belgium
Monte Rei, Portugal
Vista Vallarta (Nicklaus), Mexico
Santa Elena, Philippines

Tom D:
I have only played Moliets in France of these courses and it certainly does NOT belong here. I had high expectations prior to playing it because I had seen it on the last GD 'top 100 outside US' list. It's not a bad course but that ranking really is a joke. As you said, they probably try to get one course here from each nation even if these courses don't belong there.

PS: I like to see St. Enodoc at 55!

[Robert Thompson]

Fox Harb'r would be in the lower 50 of the Top 100 in Canada, and surely not on any list that ranks the world. Many think it is the worse use of a great site in the country.

Tommy:

There is no way they have 40 votes on Barnbougle Dunes or Ellerston, to name two.  They probably don't have ten on Ellerston.  I am guessing they somehow incorporate their associated publications' rankings into these, but I don't know how they do it.

Just taking South Africa as one example, these rankings [Leopard Creek #1, then Gary Player CC, Fancourt, Durban #4, no Humewood] are COMPLETELY at odds with the reports from Ran, Ben & the group that was just there.

There are about ten courses toward the bottom of the list which seem out of place, at least based on anything I've ever heard.  Has anyone here ever played any of the following?  Are they worthy of a list like this?

G de Moliets, France
Shensan International, China
Olivos, Argentina
Fox Harbor, Canada
Oarai, Japan
Limburg, Belgium
Monte Rei, Portugal
Vista Vallarta (Nicklaus), Mexico
Santa Elena, Philippines

[Don Hyslop]

Besides Highland Links, I would rate several other (at least)Nova Scotia Golf Course ahead of Fox Harbour. Check out the layout here:
http://www.foxharbr.com/golf.asp

 According to Canadian golf Score magazine's 2008 rankings of Canadian courses they rated it #47

http://scoregolf.com/rankings/top100/top-100-golf-courses-in-canada-2008.cfm

[Pete_Pittock]

Not only is their international golf list crazy, look what they did with international golf hotels. Fairmont Jasper is 10th and Fairmont Banff is 15th.
Adam Clayman, pipe up. They are both behind the Old Course Hotel.

[Kevin Pallier]

If they need to list courses outside the U.S., why don’t they list them by country (or area).

Well said Andrew

A Top5-10 of each country would be more appropriate based on the various country publications (where appropriate). That said no way RMW is the 4th best course in Australia nor NSW GC as #1.

[Pete_Pittock]

Guys,
They have top 100 outside US AND top courses within each country, called Planet Golf. It looks like they do not do composite courses, and Royal Melbourne (East) did not make the top 20 in Australia.

[Scott Warren]

As someone in a relatively embryonic stage of really learning about golf courses, I latched onto top 100 lists for some guidance. The last few weeks has been like finding out Santa Claus doesn't actually exist.

I guess it's best to just enjoy the courses I manage to play, learn what I can and ignore these lists (except those where my course rates well )...

[Andrew Summerell]

Guys,
They have top 100 outside US AND top courses within each country, called Planet Golf. It looks like they do not do composite courses, and Royal Melbourne (East) did not make the top 20 in Australia.

Pete, do you mean the Darius Oliver book 'Planet Golf'?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Andrew

No, GD calls their country by country list "Planet Golf."

Regarding the hotel list, who knows how they picked these?  It's just a list.  Anyone who travels and stays at these sorts of places presumably is intelligent enough to ignore it in favor of The Gold List.

Mark

[Andrew Summerell]

Andrew

No, GD calls their country by country list "Planet Golf."

Thanks Mark,

Now that I know that, I'll ask the question, do they need to do a Top 100 outside the United States list?

I have no idea why an American magazine would want to publish such a list except for the benefit of those Americans who may be traveling overseas on golf holidays, but if they already have the more useful 'Planet Golf' listings, what is the purpose of the Top 100 list?

[Bill_McBride]

Rich

Are you sure that's the link?  What the heck, let's plow forward: I could see the New in a list somewhere.  Maybe "Most Gorseful"?

Mark

I could see including the New just for the view of the sixth green with the massive bank of gold-flowered gorse behind and the "Auld Grey Toon" beyond in the distance.

[Matt_Sullivan]

Tommy:

There are about ten courses toward the bottom of the list which seem out of place, at least based on anything I've ever heard.  Has anyone here ever played any of the following?  Are they worthy of a list like this?

G de Moliets, France
Shensan International, China
Olivos, Argentina
Fox Harbor, Canada
Oarai, Japan
Limburg, Belgium
Monte Rei, Portugal
Vista Vallarta (Nicklaus), Mexico
Santa Elena, Philippines

Tom, I have been around Sheshan a couple of times. It's a good course with a pretty strong layout for the pros (they play the HSBC Champions there) and a couple of very good holes (eg 16, the short Par 4). It has a bit of a "resort-style" feel although with some nice up and down terrain. It would probably be considered not all that special in the US and it doesn't have much of a Chinese feel. It's not all that dissimilar to Pine Valley in Beijing (the Nicklaus course).

For comparisons sake, I would rate it behind say, Newcastle GC at Stockton in NSW or Victoria, bith of which missed the list. For Asian courses, I would say it is of comparable quality to Blue Canyon in Thailand or Nirwana Bali in Indonesia, both of which missed the list (probably deservedly so). It is also not as a good as the other Chinese course on the list (the Lake course at Kunming) which it is ranked ahead of.

So a good course, but by no means top 100. Rating probably inflated by being a new course with a big tournament in a country with not a lot of great courses.

[Bob Jenkins]

Tom D,

I completely agree with Robert Thompson and Don Hyslop re Fox Har'br or whatever the goofy spelling is. This is a Cooke / Carleton course at a very exclusive resort created by Ron Joyce, who made a fortune building up the Tim Horton's donut chain and selling it to Wendy's several years ago. The resort has a private air strip that can land a 737 and the only way it could possibly make money is if most of the execs in Canada and the eastern US still have a private jet head on up to this place which is on the Northumberland Straight facing Prince Edward Island.

I could never imagine this course being in the top 30 in Canada, let alone the top 10.  It is not a bad course and has some interesting holes but to rank it this high makes me wonder how and with whom GD are making these rankings. On the Doak scale, likely a 3 or 4.

Bob Jenkins

[Mark Chaplin]

I think for the UK the list should read "courses Americans go to play at"

Glaring omissions are West Sussex and you've guessed it Royal Cinque Ports. Golf World mag in the UK do not use raters as such the panel are respected GCAs, county honchos, pros, top amateurs, etc. i.e those less likely to be flattered by a new place with an entertainment budget. It is the rating most Brits go by.

GW has West Sussex at 29 and Deal at 39 in GB&I

St Enodoc is 38, below us are Machrihanish, Swinley, Western Gailles, Old Head, Carne, StA New, St Georges Hill, Casle course, Rye and Tralee. Queenwood and StA Jubilee are not in top 100.

On these ratings West Sussex should be around 40 and Deal 55-65.

[Ally Mcintosh]

91-95 granted we're at the bottom, but Noordwijkse for me was a hugely disappointing course, the poster child in all my travels for an opportunity lost.  A system that puts Noordwijkse ahead of Kennemer I feel is just wrong.  But again, we're down at the bottom so maybe the question is whether either belong on the list. (I am not qualified to judge.)

This is very interesting Mark.

Having just come back from a trip that played both courses (granted the 'A' nine at Kennemer was the front half), I can say that the overwhelming consenus of the group was for Noordwijk.

What would you have done differently?

I can think of a few things myself but overall, I was hugely impressed with the course.

[Brian Phillips]

Ally,

How was the week?  Sorry I could not make it.  Were you allowed in the AGM?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

How was the week?  Sorry I could not make it.  Were you allowed in the AGM?

It was excellent Brian. Pity you couldn't make it.

Hotel and food good, golf courses very good and the Speakers were in the whole excellent....

Maybe a few less participants this year but a very worthwhile few days.

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