No Ballyneal? Seriously?

[Frank Sullivan]

I have not had the good fortune to play Ballyneal, but I highly respect the opinions of the members on GCA.  I know I am judging by photo threads and and GCA member opinions by those who have played the course, but how is Ballyneal left off of the list? 

I don't have the experience of playing the majority of the courses on the list, but I don't "see" it!!!!

[jkinney]

My Dad always told me - "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all ". Given that there are GD raters populating this thread, I will bite my tongue and say only that I am as perplexed as you are concerning Ballyneal's abscence from GD's top 100.

[Andy Troeger]

As a GD rater I appreciate your restraint Jkinney. I will also say that I think Ballyneal deserves to be in the top 100.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have not had the good fortune to play Ballyneal, but I highly respect the opinions of the members on GCA.  I know I am judging by photo threads and and GCA member opinions by those who have played the course, but how is Ballyneal left off of the list? 

I don't have the experience of playing the majority of the courses on the list, but I don't "see" it!!!!

Am I the only one or do you find it odd that someone who has not even played Ballyneal starts this thread?

[Frank Sullivan]

I have not had the good fortune to play Ballyneal, but I highly respect the opinions of the members on GCA.  I know I am judging by photo threads and and GCA member opinions by those who have played the course, but how is Ballyneal left off of the list? 

I don't have the experience of playing the majority of the courses on the list, but I don't "see" it!!!!

Am I the only one or do you find it odd that someone who has not even played Ballyneal starts this thread?

You are right Tommy, as I stated in my post, I have not played Ballyneal.  However, reading through the posts on this forum by those who have played it, and the enthusiasm with which they speak of it, it is hard for me to imagine it not in the top 100.  Speculative, of course.  Odd?  I guess that's up to you to decide.

[Andrew Summerell]

I have not had the good fortune to play Ballyneal, but I highly respect the opinions of the members on GCA.  I know I am judging by photo threads and and GCA member opinions by those who have played the course, but how is Ballyneal left off of the list? 

I don't have the experience of playing the majority of the courses on the list, but I don't "see" it!!!!

Am I the only one or do you find it odd that someone who has not even played Ballyneal starts this thread?

I don't think it's odd. He's just asking the question & possibly looking for a response from those who have played.

[Damon Groves]

Played it and no question it belongs in the top 100. Maybe the raters have an issue with Rupert's preference of not set tee markers or pennies for marking balls. Regardless, it is a great place run by a great guy.

[Jim Colton]

How long do panelist's ratings stay 'in the mix'?  8 years?  Looks like Ballyneal will continue to get dragged down by allowing play early in the grow-in process, when conditions are nothing like they are like now and the greens were running 6-7 on the stimp.  Why punish a club for making a decision to encourage play in its infancy?  Plus, I'm not sure what was involved in the 'Knuthing' process, but if it involved removing outliers, you could definitely see high-marks from recent BN visits being wiped out because they deviated from the mean established from when the club first opened.  Potential double whammy.

Also, I'm sure Tom could've stretched the course out another 500-600 yards, made the fairways half as wide as they are and helped the course with its 'Resistance to Scoring' score, but that's not what the place is about.  I don't think they are looking to host any US Open's in Holyoke.

I'm sure Ballyneal will find its rightful place.  It will probably just take awhile.

[Matt_Ward]

In a word -- inexcusable.

Ditto the lack of understanding in where it finished in the State of Colorado.

[Matthew Schulte]

Matt Ward:

I also find its' absence laughable as I see it as worthy of being well inside the top 100, although I am admittedly biased.  As Jim said it will eventually find its' rightful place. 

Out of curiosity if you had to assign it a number where do you think Ballyneal belongs within the top 100? 

[Rob Rigg]

Having only seen pictures of Ballyneal, read Ran's review and all the commentary on the site, it seems like Golfweek's rating for 2009s Best Modern courses is probably more appropriate for the course.

When you blend modern and classic maybe it would move a little ways down the list but it seems ludicrous that it is absent. A huge miss by the magazine.

[Richard Choi]

I don't know about exact ranking, but Ballyneal is the most architecturally interesting AND FUN course I have ever played. It is REALLY close between Pacific Dune and Ballyneal for my very favorite course. I would have to give Ballyneal the edge though.

[Kyle Henderson]

Ballyneal transcends the traditional golf course. It must be on a different, more reverential list.

[Jim Nugent]

When does Golf Mag come out with its next ratings?  Interested to see where Ballyneal ranks.  Rock Creek, too. 

[ed_getka]

It is not surprising that Ballyneal is not on the list. We should always keep in mind that we are a VERY small percentage of the golfing world. Kingsley Club not making the list for years was a real head-scratcher for me and from all accounts Ballyneal being off is a bigger head-scratcher. However, you have to ask yourself what would happen if you went to any generic golf course in your local area and asked 100 golfers what they knew about Sand Hills, I would be very surprised if more than 5 had even heard of it. Now obviously raters should have heard of all these courses, but they look at these things with a different perspective. I think this was best summed up by a former rater I was talking to one day who felt Fishers Island should be marked down for not having irrigation. He didn't like it that when his club would impact the turf there his Rolex would come unclasped. I always remember that anecdote when rating subjects come up.

[Will Smith]

For those who have not been out there this video should give you a little bit of the feel of the place:

http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/03/ballyneal/

When I was there last June. The place was in great shape and Dave Hensley had the greens really moving.

[Mark Smolens]

Yeah, I hate it too when my Rolex comes unclasped 

[Jim Franklin]

As a GD panelist I am embarrassed it is not on the list. It EASILY fits into my top 15 as I LOVED the place. I only wish it was easier to get to or I would have joined (plus a little problem of three small kids at home doesn't help). I have no explanation as to why it was ranked where it was. It is totally beyond me. I love Sand Hills, but there is no way that is #13 and Ballyneal is #9 in COLORADO!!!!!!

Thanks for getting my blood going early Friday morning. I need to get back to work.

[Kalen Braley]

I would also agree that Ballyneal belongs in the top 100.  The course is most comparable to Pacific Dunes of all the courses that I've played and between the two I'm still waffling  on which one is better, although PD usually seems to edge it out.  But as PD is in the top 20, its hard to imagine Ballyneal being out of the top 25 much less the top 100.

But Ed also makes some fine points and I would add most of my friends have never even heard of places like Bandon or Cypress Point, much less a place like this. The course is still relativly new and unknown, so I think time and visits will work the kinks out on this one.

[Bart Bradley]

Kalen:

It is 3 years old.  If you have been selected to be a magazine panelist, you have the OBLIGATION to be aware of what is happening in golf course constuction.  Without any question, Ballyneal should be on the list..there are no acceptable excuses.

The panelists are not supposed to be just "average guys"who don't know about important courses like Sand Hills or Ballyneal....if they are, then your system stinks and ratings are dubious.

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

I really am not surprised by the omission.  Remember where the course finished in DIGEST's Best New list?  (I think it was 6th or 8th that year.)

I have never agreed with the GOLF DIGEST "definition" of a great course and I am always looking for ways to prove it wrong.  Building Ballyneal was apparently another way to prove it wrong.

P.S. to Jim Franklin:  Did the grades you submitted for Ballyneal really add up to it being a top 20 course? 

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak,

I don't know GD's definition (of a great course), but would love to hear yours.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

It is 3 years old.  If you have been selected to be a magazine panelist, you have the OBLIGATION to be aware of what is happening in golf course constuction.  Without any question, Ballyneal should be on the list..there are no acceptable excuses.

The panelists are not supposed to be just "average guys"who don't know about important courses like Sand Hills or Ballyneal....if they are, then your system stinks and ratings are dubious.

Bart

Bart,

I don't disagree with anything you've said and perhaps I should clarify the point I was trying to make.  While Ballyneal may not be "new" according to those in the know, it doesn't change the fact that it is pretty darn remote.  Even for raters who live in the Mountain West it still takes a pretty big effort to get there, much less the ones in other parts of the country. So as a few others have already chimed in, its possible that it may have not recieved enough votes yet, but I could be mistaken on that one. 

As a comparative, it'd be interesting to see how long it took for Sand Hills to rise to where it is now as its just as remote, if not more so.  Was SH in the top 100 during its infancy?

[Ted Kramer]

A top 100 list without Ballyneal is simply absurd.

-Ted

[Tom_Doak]

Lou:

The reason GOLF Magazine does not offer a definition of a great golf course for people to vote on is because when I was involved in that process, I refused to write a definition to force upon others [especially when people like Nicklaus and Palmer and Pete Dye were the panelists].

I really don't think you can write a complete definition of what it means to be a great golf course.  Many of the very best courses seem to have something different about them which makes them exceptional, whereas the GOLF DIGEST system is more about voting for the "least bad" course which gets good marks on all facets of a checklist.

In the end all rankings are only meaningful as a list of courses people should go and see, and I'd tell you first to go to places which are different and exceptional.  By that standard I think Ballyneal ranks reasonably high, but again, that's not the GOLF DIGEST way and so I wouldn't expect a good result from them.