[Cliff Hamm]

Massachusetts  - #20 Granite Links?

[Stephen Britton]

How bout Virginia?

[Mike Wagner]

Chambers Bay comes in at #5 in WA - comical!!

The GD "rankings" have fallen slightly below the in-flight magazine's "Best Steakhouses" list...

[Rob Rigg]

- Sahalee is the best course in WA? Wow - timber! At least you could play Sahalee, Aldarra and Snoqualmie in the same day if you drove fast enough and knock out 3 of the top 10 . . .

- I'll assume Tetherow was not visited enough to get rated because it'll be on there, just like OM, the next time round.

Is the Reserve and those that follow really better than Bandon Crossings and Juniper (looking fwd to playing there this summer).

OR is getting legit with some fine new additions.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

South Carolina, please...

[Carl Rogers]

General comment:  Ratings of courses are not about the courses, they are about the raters.

I do think that the GD process is way to superficial.  I think that the rating process is the extended observation of how a course plays for golfers of different abilities.

Mr. Britton, have you played Riverfront?

[Richard Choi]

The funny thing about Chamber Bay being ranked #5 is that does anyone doubt that after CB hosts US Open, it will not be ranked #1 in the state?

If ANYTHING is a proof that GD raters are blinded by "pedigree". It is the fact that Sahalee is rated 4 places above Chambers Bay.

And how the heck did Eaglemont sneak in into the top 10. It is a pretty quirky course to be ranked that high...

[Andy Troeger]

The funny thing about Chamber Bay being ranked #5 is that does anyone doubt that after CB hosts US Open, it will not be ranked #1 in the state?

If ANYTHING is a proof that GD raters are blinded by "pedigree". It is the fact that Sahalee is rated 4 places above Chambers Bay.

And how the heck did Eaglemont sneak in into the top 10. It is a pretty quirky course to be ranked that high...

I would think CB will be ranked #1 in the state sooner than that--I wouldn't be surprised if the off/on conditioning issues have caused that one and hopefully it will be corrected. However, even with that its clearly better than Sahalee IMO. I liked Aldarra quite a bit better than Sahalee too.

One other thing I've forgotten to mention--the omission of Roaring Fork from the Colorado list is disappointing to me. Its behind Castle Pines, Cherry Hills, Sanctuary, and Ballyneal for sure, and I'd also put Lakota Canyon and Colorado GC ahead of it, but it would be right there with Cougar Canyon and GC at Redlands Mesa for the best of the rest IMO.

The other big omission that I've noticed is We-Ko-Pa Saguaro in Arizona. I'd put it #2 in the state behind Forest Highlands Canyon, but it doesn't even make the top 25.

[Sean Leary]

The funny thing about Chamber Bay being ranked #5 is that does anyone doubt that after CB hosts US Open, it will not be ranked #1 in the state?

If ANYTHING is a proof that GD raters are blinded by "pedigree". It is the fact that Sahalee is rated 4 places above Chambers Bay.

And how the heck did Eaglemont sneak in into the top 10. It is a pretty quirky course to be ranked that high...

I would think CB will be ranked #1 in the state sooner than that--I wouldn't be surprised if the off/on conditioning issues have caused that one and hopefully it will be corrected. However, even with that its clearly better than Sahalee IMO. I liked Aldarra quite a bit better than Sahalee too.

One other thing I've forgotten to mention--the omission of Roaring Fork from the Colorado list is disappointing to me. Its behind Castle Pines, Cherry Hills, Sanctuary, and Ballyneal for sure, and I'd also put Lakota Canyon and Colorado GC ahead of it, but it would be right there with Cougar Canyon and GC at Redlands Mesa for the best of the rest IMO.

The other big omission that I've noticed is We-Ko-Pa Saguaro in Arizona. I'd put it #2 in the state behind Forest Highlands Canyon, but it doesn't even make the top 25.

Andy,

Would you guess that the condition/slow nature of the greens kept Chambers from being #1? I think that it would have to be that because it is such a clear #1...I am a bit surprised that Tumble Creek surpassed Aldarra this year, but not a major upset in my mind. Conditions there are perfect, it is an excellent course, and it is hard to get on.

[Carl Nichols]

Andy:
I was actually surprised to see that GD's top 23 courses in Arizona are private.  Like many states, AZ obviously has lots of great private courses, but given its popularity as a golf destination and some of the solid public/resort courses (including Saguaro), I thought there'd at least be 1 or 2 public courses sprinkled in.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard C:

You touched upon a very important point -- the most crucial one you have mentioned in all of your most recent posts. Too many GD raters, and likely many others for that matter, are overly influenced by the fact that a site which holds major events is somehow deemed architecturally significant. The reality is that the needs for major sites is almost the flip side in which quality architecture is highlighted.

Chambers Bay will likely get that boost you mentioned after hosting the US Open. Why it should wait until that event speaks volumes on the priorities that certain raters include among their final choices.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy,

Would you guess that the condition/slow nature of the greens kept Chambers from being #1? I think that it would have to be that because it is such a clear #1...I am a bit surprised that Tumble Creek surpassed Aldarra this year, but not a major upset in my mind. Conditions there are perfect, it is an excellent course, and it is hard to get on.

Hard telling regarding Chambers--but it does seem like conditions (including fast greens) are pretty important based on the results. I'd put it in the top 50 courses in the country even with slow greens personally. Aldarra impressed me more than I thought it would--we would have liked to have played Tumble Creek too but had to go home and it appeared to be farther out of town.

Carl,
Arizona has a few good public courses, but of the private clubs I've seen most of them do beat out the public set (other than Saguaro). I'd think Vista Verde might stand a shot at the top 25 as well. I've played 13 of those 23 private clubs on the list and don't have many quibbles with them other than the order. I'd probably replace Quintero with Desert Mountain Outlaw, but Quintero actually makes the GW Modern Listing, so go figure.


Oh and in case I haven't mentioned it before--Pinon Hills falling off the New Mexico list is a major oops to me. Paa-Ko Ridge returning to #1 is good by me but Black Mesa should be minimum #2. I'd put Pinon Hills #3, then Sunset/Sunrise at #4 and 5.

[Nick Pozaric]

I hate to ask but can someone post Kentucky please?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I hate to ask but can someone post Kentucky please?

1. Valhalla GC
2. Big Spring CC
3. Champion Trace GC
4. The Club at Olde Stone
5. Old Silo GC
6. Eagle Ridge @ Yatesville Lake
7. Hurstbourne CC
8. Louisville CC
9. Dale Hollow Lake State Park Resort Course
10. Persimmon Ridge CC

[JSlonis]

Thanks for posting the NJ & PA lists...on this stormy Monday morning, I needed a good laugh!

I understand that these ratings don't mean a heck of a lot, but if magazines are going to do them, they should at least have some assemblance of credibility. 

[Matt_Ward]

JSlonis:

Agreed.

Would enjoy seeing your listing for NJ and PA.

Thanks ...

[JSlonis]

Matt,

It would be tough for me to do a fully accurate personal ranking for NJ because I haven't played some of the very good new courses like Bayonne, The Ridge,Trump Nat'l and Atlantic City post Doak. But...

When I see a course as good as Mountain Ridge ranked #17, I see a flawed ranking system.  The fact that Forsgate(Banks) and Essex County are not on the list while Pine Hill and Shoregate are, further exemplifies my point. I feel the much the same as you do about Somerset Hills, I like the course a lot and while there are some great holes I've never held it in as high of a regard as most do.  Unfortunately, technology has really hurt SHCC from a length perspective.

For rankings, the same would be true for PA.  I haven't played most of the courses in Western PA, but I've played enough courses to question how Huntsville can be ranked as high as #5 and ahead of the likes of Saucon Valley, Huntingdon Valley, Lancaster, Philly CC, should I keep going?

Ok...I'll try.  My top courses in NJ that I've played are:

Pine Valley
Ridgewood
Plainfield
Mountain Ridge
Galloway Nat'l
Baltusrol Lower
Baltusrol Upper
Hollywood
Somerset Hills
Hidden Creek

The next level would include Metedeconk, Forsgate, Essex County, Tavistock, Rock Spring, Montclair.  I'm sure I'm forgetting others.

[David Stamm]

Richard C:

You touched upon a very important point -- the most crucial one you have mentioned in all of your most recent posts. Too many GD raters, and likely many others for that matter, are overly influenced by the fact that a site which holds major events is somehow deemed architecturally significant. The reality is that the needs for major sites is almost the flip side in which quality architecture is highlighted.

 

Torrey Pines being a perfect case in point.

[Matt_Ward]

JSlonis:

Thanks -- the only quick point I can add is that Ridge at BB is not a top ten layout in NJ -- especially when the likes of Essex County and Forsgate / Banks are completely omitted.

GD has little concept how is state findings are so out of touch as you rightly mentioned.

[Patrick Schultheis]

Richard makes a good, albeit unfortunate, point re CB and the USGA events.

I don't know a single person who has played all four (or even two or three of the four) and thinks that Sahalee is a better course than Aldarra, Tumble Creek or Chambers Bay.  However, Sahalee has hosted a PGA Championship.

I agree with Sean that Aldarra and Tumble Creek are very close.  I prefer Aldarra, but only slightly.  This summer I'll probably play both in the same day a time or two...

[Peter Ferlicca]

South Carolina, please...

1. Ocean Course
2. Long Cove
3. Harbour Town
4. Kiawah (Cassique)
5. Sage Valley
6. Kiawah (river)
7. Musgrove Mill
8. Yeamans Hall
9. May River
10. GC at Briars Creek
11. Secession
12. Greenville Chanticleer
13. Heritage Club
14. Dunes Golf and Beach Club
15. Colleton River Plantation Club Nicklaus
16. Reserve Club at Woodside Plantantion
17. Tidewater and Plantation
18. Kiawah (turtle Point)
19. Daniel Island Club Ralston Creek
20. C.C. of Charleston
21. Caledonia
22. Colleton River (Dye)
23. Chechessee Creek
24. Grande Dunes
25. The Cliffs at Keowee
26. Haig Point
27. Barefoot Resort Fazio
28. Barefoot Resort Dye
29. Kings North Myrtle Beach
30. TPC Myrtle Beach

[Ron Waterson]

At Golf Kentucky Links we focus on public courses, but I have been around a few of these at least once.  I have always scoffed at the GD ratings as it is hard to understand how they arrive.  Thought I would throw a couple of thoughts out on these based on my experience.

1. Valhalla GC-Been to three tournaments here now and I still don't know if I think its a great design or not.  It looks really tough.  I feel the need to play it to rate it properly.  Don't feel the need to let $300 go right now.  Locals have often said that Persimmon is a better design.  I suspect I would agree from a routing standpoint, but Persimmon has some strange greens and treatments that border on goofy.
2. Big Spring CC-I have not played this since it was redesigned.  It gets high marks from locals.  I liked it before.
3. Champion Trace GC-Nice design and lacks the goofy greens Art built at Persimmon.  Not sure I would have it quite this high.
4. The Club at Olde Stone-I think Drew Rogers did most the work here.  I've been around twice and I really like it.  Its tough. Belongs.
5. Old Silo GC-Much better job of working with eye candy elevation changes than the next one on the list.  I think its pretty solid.
6. Eagle Ridge @ Yatesville Lake- To be fair, this was a lot tougher landscape to work with than above.  This one is more like a nature adventure with a golf club than like playing golf.  Its fun! Doesn't land on my top 10 even when I exclude the privates.
7. Hurstbourne CC-Nice old school course in immaculate condition.  Love the design.  Belongs.
8. Louisville CC-Same as above except not nearly as good a design and might not belong based on that.
9. Dale Hollow Lake State Park Resort Course-Solid design that uses the terrain without getting goofy.  Unfortunately they shoved all the poor backfill just off the fairway, and grass won't grow in the rough.  Currently we have it at three on our list, but I just played it and it will probably drop a couple of notches...Given equal conditions, and comparing publics, Old Silo is better in my opinion.  Its a nice place.
10. Persimmon Ridge CC-see above.  Great routing...green areas are odd on a few holes.  Curious to know if the GD raters realize they changed the course routing while adding another nine holes.

Others I find noteworthy include:
Hidden Cove the treasure of the parks signature series in my opinion.  Best design of the state park group.
Country Club of Paducah-Apparently it used to be on GD's list.  Reportedly just as good Rees Jones design as it used to be.
Lafayette- Conditions slipped for a couple of years...new owners now. Really good design in my opinion.
Lassing Pointe-I think GD used to love this one and Triple Crown didn't they?

Ron

[Kenny Baer]

Could someone please post the Georgia list; I can't find it.

[David Ober]

Barona should be on the California list, IMHO.

[Scott Stambaugh]

How about CA??

1. Cypress Point Club
2. Pebble Beach
3. Olympic - Lake
4. Riviera CC
5. San Francisco Golf Club
6. The Quarry at La Quinta
7. LACC North
8. Spyglass Hill
9. Monterey Peninsula Shore
10. The Preserve GC
11. Mayacama GC
12. Valley Club of Montecito
13. Porcupine Creek GC
14. The Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe
15. Sherwood CC
16. The Madison Club
17. Bel Air CC
18. Pasatiempo GC
19. Tradition GC La Quinta
20. Shady Canyon GC
21. Lahontan GC
22. The Reserve GC
23. Links at Spanish Bay
24. Bighorn GC Mountain
25. Stone Eagle Club
26. Winchester CC
27. Vintage Club (Desert)
28. Cordevalle GC
29. Torrey Pines South
30. PGA West Stadium
31. Bighorn GC Canyons
32. Trump National
33. La Quinta Resort Mountain
34. Pelican Hill GC Ocean South
35. Old Greenwood GC

Four I'd play before nearly half of this list-
-Meadow Club (did the raters get lost on the way and give up?!?)
-MPCC Dunes
-Claremont CC
-Rancho Santa Fe GC


Others I'd consider too-
-Orinda CC
-Sonoma GC
-Peninsula GCC
-Lake Merced
-Barona Creek

hell, I'd play Wente Vineyards before Winchester CC
and, I'd make two trips around Old Brockway before playing Old Greenwood again

SS

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