JNC:
I saw your post so you can see my entire NY comments below. Leatherstocking is a fine layout -- but the bar for NY golf is THAT high.
If it grabs a spot -- and for me that's a big "if" -- it would be #29 or #30 at best.
OK is a much finer layout than Leatherstocking. Unfortunately, too many people see the name of Rees Jones and then apply some tagline that doesn't fit in this specific case.
First rate property -- balanced with an interesting routing and a solid combo of different holes. Course has the good to hold a big time tourney and at the same time can handle the high handicap types (within reason).
Gets NO attention because few, if any, people see the Albany area as a golf location.
If you have not played it -- then your NY golf education is not complete until you do.
Jerry:
What amazes me about the Jersey list is how they decide to include a number of public courses when you also have key private ones not even considered.
NJ has dramatically improved with a range of courses that should have been listed.
The work Hanse / Bahto did with Essex County CC in West Orange is one clear cut example. The course benefited immensely and yet doesn't even earn a mention -- somewhere !
Ditto the key improvements carried out by RDC management at the Banks Course at Forsgate. Credit architect Stephen Key for the inclusion of the famed Biaritz at the 17th there. For those who love Banks his work in Monroe Township is worthy of serious acclaim -- even at the national level for the level of details found there.
I also think the same can be said for how well the Banks / Ross contributoins are made at Montclair GC -- also in West Orange.
Gents:
The NY list for analysis ...
Can't really argue with the first two ... although I am aware that WFW gets little love because of the severe nature of the place.
FI is a wonderful layout and worthy of honors -- just not #3 -- for me it's a borderline call for the top ten. Not a knock on the course itself but an elevation of a few others. NGLA deserves a higher position than what Digest provided.
I like the challenges presented by Oak Hill / East but I have never understood what the real elements of greatness are beyond the demands presented. I like some of the still maintained Ross contributions like the spectacular short uphill par-4 14th. The obsession with more and more length and still too many trees for my tastes pushes the layout down a bit.
I see Oak Hill / East as the NY version of Baltusrol / Lower in Jersey - but just a tad beyond the Springfield layout.
Can't possibly fathom the love for HN. I would also throw out of the picture places like Trump's in Briarcliff and all the layouts connected w Turning Stone. The ones at the gambling location are OK layouts but the bar for NY's top 30 is just way toooooo high for any of them.
Saratoga National is fine if the list were pure public courses. It doesn't belong in such elite company.
I've only played OH/W once and found it enjoyable but I can't see it being rated that high -- ditto CC of Rochester. Possibly those who have played it recently can further explain it's position but from my memory the likes of Sleepy Hollow, Fenway and Westchester / West would all be above where it's rated now. I personally see Westchester as one of the more underrated top tier clubs -- it's validation was proven countless times when it hosted the Classic over the years.
I have always been a fan of BB -- but not in the present form and extreme desires to have the course play way too narrow and lengthened to the excess. Borderline top ten call for me.
I have not played Friar's Head to date but clearly those who have cannot fathom on why it's so low. I have played Sebonack and I see it as one of NY's ten best layouts. Demanding no doubt -- but also loaded with an array of design features that work well given the input of two very determined people that Michael P engaged and kept focused throughout.
I'd like to see what QR has done recently as mentioned by Jeff Lewis.
Candidly, Deepdale gets plenty of mentions because of the "exclusive tag" -- I think there are other quality courses ahead of it -- places like Meadowbrook and Century come quickly to mind.
Crag Burn and CC of Buffalo are layouts that few downstate people ever really see -- let alone play. I'd keep them both -- a bit higher for sure.
WF / East is a wonderful layout but often gets lost in the sauce with the West. I'd have it -- but not top ten. Garden City would garner a top ten position with me -- likely right at the 10th spot.
No doubt about keeping places like Maidstone, Piping Rock, The Creek, Atlantic -- the issue would be which one finishes ahead of the others.
I'm glad to see The Bridge mentioned -- but I see it towards the end of the listing. Rees Jones should be saluted for his work at Olde Kinderhook which is badly overlooked.
I definitely need to play Olde Kinderhook--I know has been Top 100 Modern in Golfweek. I guess I will always be skeptical because, well, it's Rees Jones.
I think you are underrating Leatherstocking greatly. I definitely see it as better than Crag Burn or CC of Buffalo, both of which you mention as being underrated on the list. Leatherstocking, while being very short in the modern era, defends itself well with the wild terrain. The routing dictates that the three longest par fours play dramatically uphill, and uneven lies are the rule rather than exception. The short holes have a tremendous amount of variety, and the dramatic 18th is an unbeatable finisher. Since I have played no downstate golf (with the exception of Garden City), I can't judge to its potential position, but I would put it above the upstate courses I have played with the exception of the West at Oak Hill.
CC of Rochester has undergone a dramatic restoration in the last few years. I am very familiar with the course and, while it has a couple bad RTJ holes, it is full of great Ross greens. Gil Hanse's restoration also ensures that the course plays remarkably difficult for 6,500 yards from the back markers.
I will try to lay out the best aspects of the West at Oak Hill. I have played this course more than a thousand times, and gets better for me each time.
As a whole, the course has a tremendous collection of Ross greens. 4 is a short par three, similar to the the 7th at Teugega (a hole that has been praised on here many times), but with more wild contours. The required shot changes every day based on the hole location. This is one of many dramatic greens which include a left-to-right two-tiered green at one, a thumbprint in the middle of the second green, a wild plateau green at the 3rd, horseshoe contours at 4 and 6, a double plateau green at 11, and a hog's back green at the 14th.
Each of the par threes present great variety: the wild green at the short fourth, the three-tiered downhiller at the 8th, the wild, mid range downhiller at 14, and the long 17th to a two-tiered green.
The long par fours are defended by great terrain and elusive elevated greensites. 13 and 15 are a pair of Herculean par fours that fall along the most dramatic terrain on the course. The fairway and green on 13 both fall perfectly into saddles in the land, and the green itself is wild and imaginative. 15 presents a blind, reverse-camber tee shot that is maddeningly difficult. The second shot is an uphill approach from a downhill lie to a beautiful punchbowl green. Both of these holes are indicative of the challenges of West Course. They present difficulties that rely on terrain and routing rather than excessive bunkering or trees. This means that these holes, and the course as a whole, reach the ideal of being eminently playable for the high handicappers, ladies, and juniors that frequent the course, as well as providing a subtle but frustrating challenge for the scratch or low handicapper.
The course's weaknesses are both fundamental and minor: the course has too many trees and overhanging limbs. While it is not as overtreed as the East, more trees need to be removed or trimmed; the course also is lacking in strategic fairway bunkers. Only the left side bunkers at 7 and 18 present any real challenge, and even they are out of play for the longer hitter. 7 is marred by a recently added aiming bunker, which is an insipid addition to an otherwise fantastic long par four.
Overall, the West Course is gentler than the East, but it maintains a tight par 70 and is well-defended by highly original Ross greens. It deserves to be ranked at the top of the Upstate list, wherever that might place it in the top 30 in New York.