GD BEST IN STATE

[Eric Smith]

Could someone please post the Georgia list; I can't find it.

Kenny - here it is:

1.Augusta National GC
2.Peachtree GC
3. East Lake GC
4.Ocean Forest GC
5.Jonathan Crompton
6.The Farm GC
7.Sea Island GC (Seaside)
8.Champions Retreat GC (Bluff/Island)
9.Hawk's Ridge GC
10.Cuscowilla
11.Atlanta Athletic Club (Highlands)
12.GC of Georgia (Lakeside)
13.Ansley GC
14.Atlanta Athletic Club (Riverside)
15.The River Club
16.The Brickyard at Riverside
17.TPC Sugarloaf
18.The Standard Club
19.Augusta CC
20.Ogeechee GC

Crompton at 5 should make you proud!  That's really your club btw and I'm ribbing you dawg. 

Bring your brother up on Oct. 10 and we'll play at HH before the game.

[JNC Lyon]

Could someone please post the Georgia list; I can't find it.

Kenny - here it is:

1.Augusta National GC
2.Peachtree GC
3. East Lake GC
4.Ocean Forest GC
5.Jonathan Crompton
6.The Farm GC
7.Sea Island GC (Seaside)
8.Champions Retreat GC (Bluff/Island)
9.Hawk's Ridge GC
10.Cuscowilla
11.Atlanta Athletic Club (Highlands)
12.GC of Georgia (Lakeside)
13.Ansley GC
14.Atlanta Athletic Club (Riverside)
15.The River Club
16.The Brickyard at Riverside
17.TPC Sugarloaf
18.The Standard Club
19.Augusta CC
20.Ogeechee GC

Crompton at 5 should make you proud!  That's really your club btw and I'm ribbing you dawg. 

Bring your brother up on Oct. 10 and we'll play at HH before the game.

No Long Shadow?

[Mark Pritchett]

Glad to see Cuscowilla hold at #10, it should move up in my opinion and I would really like to see Mike Young's Long Shadow make the list.  It is a shame more public courses aren't included.  Champions Retreat is a solid top 10 and I was tickled to see Augusta CC appear. 

Has anyone here played The Farm?  Curious to hear about it.

[Matt_Ward]

What's been so fascinating about this thread is the wealth of info you get from the people who actually live in or are quite familiar with the states themselves. Makes you wonder what so many of the GD raters were looking at when weighing in with their thoughts.

Like I said before -- it doesn't take a Yellow Pages Listing of people to get quality info. This thread demonstrates that.

[Tim Leahy]

I haven't seen  a Colorado or Nevada list yet, can someone post those?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Could someone please post the Georgia list; I can't find it.

Kenny - here it is:

1.Augusta National GC
2.Peachtree GC
3. East Lake GC
4.Ocean Forest GC
5.Jonathan Crompton
6.The Farm GC
7.Sea Island GC (Seaside)
8.Champions Retreat GC (Bluff/Island)
9.Hawk's Ridge GC
10.Cuscowilla
11.Atlanta Athletic Club (Highlands)
12.GC of Georgia (Lakeside)
13.Ansley GC
14.Atlanta Athletic Club (Riverside)
15.The River Club
16.The Brickyard at Riverside
17.TPC Sugarloaf
18.The Standard Club
19.Augusta CC
20.Ogeechee GC

Crompton at 5 should make you proud!  That's really your club btw and I'm ribbing you dawg. 

Bring your brother up on Oct. 10 and we'll play at HH before the game.

Good to see Ogeechee there. It's a really cool Pete Dye course that I think most would enjoy on this site.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Carl Nichols]

Richard C:

You touched upon a very important point -- the most crucial one you have mentioned in all of your most recent posts. Too many GD raters, and likely many others for that matter, are overly influenced by the fact that a site which holds major events is somehow deemed architecturally significant. The reality is that the needs for major sites is almost the flip side in which quality architecture is highlighted.

Chambers Bay will likely get that boost you mentioned after hosting the US Open. Why it should wait until that event speaks volumes on the priorities that certain raters include among their final choices.

Matt:
At one time I thought you could explain the GD rankings this way, but then there are courses like Atlanta Athletic Club, which has hosted numerous majors (including a pretty interesting one recently), but doesn't crack the top 10 in Georgia.  If there's a bias in favor of hard courses that have hosted major championships, why isn't AAC ranked higher?

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Can those in the know explain the following to me ...

In New Hampshire why no love for either Mt Wash (update by Brian Silva) or Panorama at The Balsams?

In Mass -- should a composite course which is played infrequently by selected as #1 in The Bay State?

In Minn -- is Interlachen the best there ? What architectural merits does Hazeltine National have beyond hosting majors and being extremely demanding?

In Montana -- Rock Creek was left out -- the threshold for state ratings is far less than national consideration -- should be at the top in my mind.

In Pennsy - someone has to explain to me how #3 thru #5 got there (Aronimink, Laurel Valley and Huntsville) ?

In AZ -- how do Mirabel and Talking Rock get considered for positions within the top 19 ? No Outlaw at DM ! How does Fazio at WR -- get placed ahead of the Mickelson / Stephenson big brother Lower layout at WR ?


Carl:

No doubt there are exceptions to what I mentioned. Candidly, I don't how much love AAC has ever had.

Just a quick question to you -- do you see AAC as one of the ten best courses in the state?

In general terms -- too many raters are unduly influenced by what takes place on the tournament golf scene. ANGC is proof positive that the aura of the place has simply brainwashed people to forget / ignore / not realize, call it what one will, but the greatness of ANGC is no longer tied to how the course is prepared now. Unforutnately, the braintrust GD raters, those who rated it that is, simply could care less and pushed for the top spot it now occupies.

Architecture is not joined at the hip with tournament golf -- they are two separate matters. If it happens that's great -- but it's far from the case in being an automatic.


Gents:

Someone asked for other states. Here is Nevada ...

1). Shadow Creek
2). Wolf Creek
3). Cascata
4). Montreux
5). Edgewood Tahoe
6). Incline Village / Champ
7). PGA at Coyote Springs
. Southern Highlands
9). South Shore
10). Reflection Bay

Colorado ...

1). Castle Pines
2). Cherry Hills
3). Sanctuary
4). Broadmoor / East
5). Ballyneal
6). Redlands Mesa
7). Colorado GC
. Catamount Ranch
9). CC of the Rockies
10). Red Sky Ranch / Norman
11). Pradera
12). Denver CC
13). Columbine
14). RSR / Fazio
15). Lakota Canyon Ranch
16). Maroon Creek
17). Cordillera / Summit
18). Breckenridge (Beaver / Bear)
19). Raven at Three Peaks
20). Cherry Creek

I'll have comments later on Wednesday -- now time for zzzzzz ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Rock Creek (and Tetherow) can't be eligible for a state list until they go through the "Best New" cycle. Ditto Rainmakers and Outlaw in New Mexico, etc.

All,
I've only played two courses in Nevada, but if Southern Highlands isn't better than #8 I'd be really surprised. I liked it quite a bit.

[Mike Hendren]

At Golf Kentucky Links we focus on public courses, but I have been around a few of these at least once.  I have always scoffed at the GD ratings as it is hard to understand how they arrive.  Thought I would throw a couple of thoughts out on these based on my experience.

1. Valhalla GC-Been to three tournaments here now and I still don't know if I think its a great design or not.  It looks really tough.  I feel the need to play it to rate it properly.  Don't feel the need to let $300 go right now.  Locals have often said that Persimmon is a better design.  I suspect I would agree from a routing standpoint, but Persimmon has some strange greens and treatments that border on goofy.
2. Big Spring CC-I have not played this since it was redesigned.  It gets high marks from locals.  I liked it before.
3. Champion Trace GC-Nice design and lacks the goofy greens Art built at Persimmon.  Not sure I would have it quite this high.
4. The Club at Olde Stone-I think Drew Rogers did most the work here.  I've been around twice and I really like it.  Its tough. Belongs.
5. Old Silo GC-Much better job of working with eye candy elevation changes than the next one on the list.  I think its pretty solid.
6. Eagle Ridge @ Yatesville Lake- To be fair, this was a lot tougher landscape to work with than above.  This one is more like a nature adventure with a golf club than like playing golf.  Its fun! Doesn't land on my top 10 even when I exclude the privates.
7. Hurstbourne CC-Nice old school course in immaculate condition.  Love the design.  Belongs.
8. Louisville CC-Same as above except not nearly as good a design and might not belong based on that.
9. Dale Hollow Lake State Park Resort Course-Solid design that uses the terrain without getting goofy.  Unfortunately they shoved all the poor backfill just off the fairway, and grass won't grow in the rough.  Currently we have it at three on our list, but I just played it and it will probably drop a couple of notches...Given equal conditions, and comparing publics, Old Silo is better in my opinion.  Its a nice place.
10. Persimmon Ridge CC-see above.  Great routing...green areas are odd on a few holes.  Curious to know if the GD raters realize they changed the course routing while adding another nine holes.

Others I find noteworthy include:
Hidden Cove the treasure of the parks signature series in my opinion.  Best design of the state park group.
Country Club of Paducah-Apparently it used to be on GD's list.  Reportedly just as good Rees Jones design as it used to be.
Lafayette- Conditions slipped for a couple of years...new owners now. Really good design in my opinion.
Lassing Pointe-I think GD used to love this one and Triple Crown didn't they?

Ron

Ron, what do you make of Idle Hour's omission?  I would place it above Olde Stone, the only other KY course I've played.

Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

You are 1000% correct -- SH is considerably better than the 8th spot listed and my NV golf course listing is fairly extensive.

[JNC Lyon]

Gents:

Can those in the know explain the following to me ...

In New Hampshire why no love for either Mt Wash (update by Brian Silva) or Panorama at The Balsams?

In Mass -- should a composite course which is played infrequently by selected as #1 in The Bay State?

I agree about the Country Club in that I do not understand why magazines insist on rating the Composite course.  This formation should not qualify as a legitimately ratable golf course, simply because 95% of people who play the Country Club do not play the Composite configuration.  Furthermore, the Clyde/Squirrel nines (the traditional 18 hole formation for the membership) possess greater variety, interest and charm than the original course.  The four short par fours are tremendous (the 10th and its fronting mound is highly original) and, while the course is much shorter than the composite, it still  has the bruisers at 1, 3, 9, and 18.

It is too bad that the New Hampshire list doesn't include the classic mountain Donald Ross resort courses at Balsams or Mount Washington.  I have heard great things about both.

Can you post the New Hampshire list?  Does it include Bald Peak?  I've heard many, many great things about this gem near Lake Winnipesaukee, and it would seem to be very authentic Ross.  Does it include Canterbury Woods?  This is a highly underrated Ross Forbes courses.  It includes double-fairway gem of a par five and a great set of five par threes.  The long par three 8th, playing over a wide canyon, is a show-stopper.  Any New Hampshire list without these courses would seem to be incomplete.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

I agree with you on TCC in Mass.

Ditto the fact that Mt Wash and Panorama have the goods for a mention in NH.

Speaking of which the list for the Granite State ...

1). Baker Hill, Newbury
2). Lake Winnipesaukee, New Durham
3). GC of New England, Stratham
4). Lake Sunapee, New London
5). Montcalm, Enfield
6). Abenaqui, Rye Beach
7). Manchester, Bedford
. Portsmouth, Greenland
9). Concord, Concord
10). Owl's Nest, Campton

[JNC Lyon]

JNC:

I agree with you on TCC in Mass.

Ditto the fact that Mt Wash and Panorama have the goods for a mention in NH.

Speaking of which the list for the Granite State ...

1). Baker Hill, Newbury
2). Lake Winnipesaukee, New Durham
3). GC of New England, Stratham
4). Lake Sunapee, New London
5). Montcalm, Enfield
6). Abenaqui, Rye Beach
7). Manchester, Bedford
. Portsmouth, Greenland
9). Concord, Concord
10). Owl's Nest, Campton

Matt,

Have you played either Canterbury Woods or Bald Peak?  If not, I highly recommend it.  I assume Bald Peak, due to its very exclusive nature, does not get enough raters to qualify.  Canterbury Woods surely fits into the top 10, though probably near the lower end.

[JSlonis]

Matt,

Don't you think Aronimink belongs in the top 5 of PA courses?

I'd agree in regard to Huntsville and I've never played Laurel Valley, but Aronomink is pretty darn good, especially after Ron's restor-renovation.

[hhuffines]

Thanks for taking the time to list these state rankings... can anyone post the North Carolina list from GD?

[Cliff Hamm]

The print media is in serious economic trouble as witnessed by many newspapers going out of business.  When the GD list was only available to a select few I understood the curiosity in wanting those in the know to post.  I have now had my subscription GD for a few days and it is available on news stands.  If someone who has the magazine desires to post the list to make a point ok, but if you have not purchased the magazine is it appropriate to ask for the list?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Sorry to sound negative, but the last 3 pages are full of people asking for certain state lists to be posted, when a link to the current state lists was posted on page 1 of this thread:

If this works a PDF of the booklet can be found here: (cut it  and paste it in your browser)

files.me.com/jpaulcarey/ly4fwd

I found it to be quite handy, considering this link above also includes the Top 100, Top 100 Public, 100 Best outside the U.S., and Planet Golf (best in every other country besides the U.S.).  Lots of nice pics, too.

[Matt_Ward]

JSlonis:

The short answer for me on Aronimink is no.

I salute what was done there but I have never found the totality of the architecture there compelling. No doubt getting rid of unnecessary trees and restoring the greens, to name just two items, has been a huge bonanza for the club. Hats off to the membership in bringing on board Ron P for his services.

I see Aronimink as a brute course. I also think other local area courses have more complete designs -- by that -- I mean a greater diversity of holes / shots encountered, superior land,  and more complex routings.

With Digest raters it's also likely the difficulty dimension plays a large role in the club's recent re-emergence. Is it really the 3rd best course in all of Pennsy? No, not for me. If I had to place an alternate I would suggest a place like Lancaster or HV.

JNC:

Have not played the ones you mentioned. Clearly, many people likely have not seen the Silva work at Mt Wash -- also can't understand how Panorama gets thrown under the bus.

[Sean Leary]

In the MA listing, why would they do the composite course for the state list when the Top 100 list it is just 2 of the 9's?

 

[JNC Lyon]

In the MA listing, why would they do the composite course for the state list when the Top 100 list it is just 2 of the 9's?

 

Sean,

It is particularly strange because it seems like the rankings that use the member's 18 hole configuration tend to rank the course higher.

[Josh_Mahar]

I know I am a homer but wheres the love for Wild Horse?  Not even a sniff at the public 100??  Come on-we might be too high in golfweeks rankings but I assure you we are better than half on the GD public list.

 Must have p---ed someone off at GD.  It appears they don't even know where we are!!--listed as Henderson (assuming Nevada) as there is a Wild Horse GC there.

[Tom Huckaby]

I know I am a homer but wheres the love for Wild Horse?  Not even a sniff at the public 100??  Come on-we might be too high in golfweeks rankings but I assure you we are better than half on the GD public list.

 Must have p---ed someone off at GD.  It appears they don't even know where we are!!--listed as Henderson (assuming Nevada) as there is a Wild Horse GC there.

That pained me also, Josh.  Oh well.

[David Lott]

Based on the Wisconsin ratings, this is very strange. I say this as a member at Horseshoe Bay, ranked 7th in the state. Horseshoe Bay is a nice enough course, and if you want a private course in Door County, it's all there is. It's also the best course in Door County. But it doesn't really have great holes. It's conditioning is ok, but it's overwatered. Given the climate and the soil, it could play a lot faster, but they choose to keep it lush.

Don't get me wrong. I like the course and the club. The price is definitely right (if we stay afloat.) Pace of play is good. The staff is excellent. There are many lovely views (though condos near the course have diminished this.) It's an altogether fine place to play golf.

But I can think offhand of ten courses in Wisconsin that are better and not listed (examples: Lawsonia, Blue Mound (where I once was a member), Ozaukee, Brown County). There are many courses that have opened since I lived in Wisconsin that I have not played. Is much hyped Erin Hills not a top ten course and Horseshoe Bay and Sentry World are? I don't know because I have not see Erin Hills. But based on the courses I do know, it's very strange.

[Tommy Williamsen]

 

 . Is much hyped Erin Hills not a top ten course and Horseshoe Bay and Sentry World are? 

Because Ron Whitten is the co-designer of EH it has been withdrawn from consideration.