Huckaby - Mucci argument continued; The top 100 golf courses in Fog....

[Cristian]

Research shows that food served in a restaurant with a beautiful waitress and classy ambiance is rated better than the same food in a less inspiring ambiance served by let's say Tim Herron.

Probably it is the same with golf courses; although one should probably try to factor out the vista's when judging the design and the course, it is probably impossible. And if that is human nature, why not factor in the vista's anyway? The primary goal of ratings has to be to create an idea of what people who have not played a course might expect. And their prospective assesment of the course will also be blurred by bad or good vistas!

What this means for the quality of the DESIGN alone, now that is a different matter. Although a good design can underline great views, the site of CPC cannot be designed into a course without great views, and a course in the middle of a heavy  industrial area will have very few, whoever is the designer.

I would be very curious to know from people in the Mucci or Huckaby camp which courses in the top 100 (let's say GW, not GD) would suffer if they would be played exclusively in heavy fog. And which would relatively benefit?

Please name the courses and state your affiliance. (TH or PM will do   )

Just to mention a few myself:

Teeth of the dog, Pebble, CPC, Torrey Pines will suffer; Royal Lytham, NGLA, Ballyneal, Royal Melbourne would benefit. (I'm probably more TH than PM affiliate, but I'm not sure, maybe halfway?-I'd rather not compromise myself against any of these two, as a junior member, especially since I have not yet played and involved myself in threads regarding Merion...)

So let me know; which would be the world's best courses if all play would be in heavy fog???
 

[Chip Gaskins]

this was my view off #17 at CPC:



and i still think it one of best courses on the planet.

i don't want fog this thick, but a little wet air is great...i.e. scotland, ireland, bandon, etc

[Ronald Montesano]

I have to dig up the photos, but I played one and two at Pac Trails in the fog and it sucked.  I honestly think that this is a worthless thread, as any hole is rendered worse by the fog.  It's nice if you want to commit murder, but what else might fog be good for.  Your camera flash probably bounces back off the misty stuff, making for a bad picture.

[Ronald Montesano]

Duhhhh...forgot it was still el primero de abril.  Got me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Research shows that food served in a restaurant with a beautiful waitress and classy ambiance is rated better than the same food in a less inspiring ambiance served by let's say Tim Herron.

That research would seem to depend upon how discerning the participants were when it came to food.

Isn't this the same issue as CCFAD.

Give em the sizzle, not the steak ?

Probably it is the same with golf courses; although one should probably try to factor out the vista's when judging the design and the course, it is probably impossible. And if that is human nature, why not factor in the vista's anyway? The primary goal of ratings has to be to create an idea of what people who have not played a course might expect. And their prospective assesment of the course will also be blurred by bad or good vistas!

What this means for the quality of the DESIGN alone, now that is a different matter. Although a good design can underline great views, the site of CPC cannot be designed into a course without great views, and a course in the middle of a heavy  industrial area will have very few, whoever is the designer.

I would be very curious to know from people in the Mucci or Huckaby camp which courses in the top 100 (let's say GW, not GD) would suffer if they would be played exclusively in heavy fog. And which would relatively benefit?

I think that's a REALLY, REALLY GREAT question.

Wouldn't that exercise force the evaluator to concentrate on the routing, hole design, feature design, feature placement, and the sporting challenge presented by the architecture ?

Shouldn't that be the true measure of the architecture and the playing challenge ..... what's on and in the golf course ?

Having played NGLA, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Pebble Beach and GCGC in a good fog, their architecture wasn't diminished by the limiting of my focal point.

Can that be said of Spanish Bay and other courses ?

GREAT question

Please name the courses and state your affiliance. (TH or PM will do   )

Just to mention a few myself:

Teeth of the dog, Pebble, CPC, Torrey Pines will suffer; Royal Lytham, NGLA, Ballyneal, Royal Melbourne would benefit. (I'm probably more TH than PM affiliate, but I'm not sure, maybe halfway?-I'd rather not compromise myself against any of these two, as a junior member, especially since I have not yet played and involved myself in threads regarding Merion...)

So let me know; which would be the world's best courses if all play would be in heavy fog???

Those with the best architecture 
 

[Ed Oden]

I don't know whether I am in Patrick's or Tom's camp.  But I have played rounds in the fog at Shinnecock, NGLA, Friars Head, Pebble, Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails, to name a few.  In none of these instances did the fog detract from the architecture or my opinion about these courses.  But in almost all cases, it added to the overall experience by enveloping the course in an eerie, mystical quality befitting their greatness.  To me, fog brings peace, focus and calmness to a golf course.

Ed

[Jason McNamara]

From the video featured in the recent thread on Castle Stuart features:
(http://www.castlestuartgolf.com/distinctive-course-features.html)

I haven't the smallest hesitation in saying that beauty means a great deal on a golf course; even the man who emphatically states he does not care a hang for beauty is subconsciously influenced by his surroundings.

Alister MacKenzie, Golf Architecture

I wouldn't mind the occasional foggy round at a course I already knew, though I think I'd want to be able to see most everything the first time or two.

Two questions, assuming the "heavy fog" Cristian mentioned limits visibility to 200 yds or less:

How many great courses have blind drives on every single par 4 & 5? 

How do you evaluate what shot to hit on a short par 4 or a split-fairway par 5 if you don't know what the risk/reward is?

Ed, I totally get what you are saying re peacefulness, but I played the last couple holes at Sandpiper in the dark my only time there, and would have preferred an extra 30 mins of light.  (Not that Sandpiper is up there with those other courses, but that's my reference point.)

[Cristian]

Good point on the heavy fog, Jason. If you can't see half the hole, you can't say anything on architecture really. What I meant to establish is how people would evaluate courses if they can't see the beautiful backdrop to holes and the views, but would have to evaluate purely on the basis of the golf holes themselves.

I am not necessarily saying that is the only way one should evaluate a golf course, I am just saying it would be a very interesting exercise.

[Tom Huckaby]

I find the question potentially interesting, but not germane to anything I've ever contended... you - as does Patrick - seem to have my position quite wrong.

My "camp" would say that views CAN matter when they are there to be had.  That's it.

If one is not in my camp, one doesn't believe in logic.

Now as for the best courses in fog... I really don't care.  They're sure as hell not foggy EVERY day.

TH

[Jason McNamara]

A concurrent thread points to a David MacLay Kidd interview regarding his work at Stonebrae.  The hosts ask if it's all about the golf hole or the scenery, and he said both.  His 18th there looks out over SF Bay (when you can see it, he notes).

[Patrick_Mucci]

I find the question potentially interesting, but not germane to anything I've ever contended... you - as does Patrick - seem to have my position quite wrong.

My "camp" would say that views CAN matter when they are there to be had.  That's it.

If one is not in my camp, one doesn't believe in logic.

Now as for the best courses in fog... I really don't care.  They're sure as hell not foggy EVERY day.


That's not true.
I have it from reliable sources that you play in a fog every time you play !