Mike DeVries: El Boqueron Green Sketches + Interview

[Tom Dunne]

Hi All,

David Edel mentioned a little while back that Mike DeVries had done some green sketches for the El Boqueron project down in Texas. I thought I'd post a couple of them here, and also mention that I had the chance to interview Mike a couple of days ago and have added some of his comments on the sketches and the course in general. Here's the link to that feature:

http://out-and-back.net/?p=186

[Thomas Patterson]

GREAT post!  I am excited to see how this course design/construction proceeds!  I really enjoyed the green sketches and your interview with Mike and his comments. 

Cheers

[Tom Dunne]

Thanks, Thomas. There was a long thread on El Boqueron here a few weeks ago--here's the link in case you missed it.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38874.0.html

[Brad Fleischer]

Hmmmm limited edition cellls by mike, would look good in the den   Do I see a touch of da vinci lol

[Thomas Patterson]

Thanks, Thomas. There was a long thread on El Boqueron here a few weeks ago--here's the link in case you missed it.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38874.0.html

Thank you Tom.  I did see that thread and enjoyed it immensely, but did not post.  Thanks again for the link!

Thomas (TJ)

[Bill_McBride]

How many square feet are those double greens?  They sure do look interesting.

[Joe Hancock]

How many square feet are those double greens?  They sure do look interesting.

Depends on the size of your computer monitor.....

The anticipated size of the greens will be somewhere between 30-40K sq. ft. At least, that's how they scaled out. We'll see what Mike does once he's in the seat of the dozer.

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

Wow, I didn't read or see the original thread from a few weeks ago.  It was a nice afternoon read and I'm glad that Tom Dunne posted the links.  Most hearty good wishes to Mr Edel and Metropolitan RED group on this project and their great archie-build team of Mike, Joe and crew.

Combining some questions I would have asked on the original had I seen it, and asking them here:

    Can anyone indentify and post the name and location of any other 9 double green loop golf courses, that yield a round of 18 holes? 

     Is anyone aware of other experimentations with this sort of configuration historically, and can you cite them?

     How much different is this than the few Japanese courses that have double greens?  Aren't they more for the purpose of having 'winter greens' and are not played in multiple loops from different tees to double up on the possible holes available to be played? 

The only course I know of that is truly a double loop of 9 holes with dual greens (some separate greens divided by 20-50 yards and some one dual green dual pin location design) is right here near me, called Thornberry Creek.  It has been a public course, that opened as the dual 9 hole, then with grandiose plans, morphed into a new 18 holes built in addition to the sporty 9 hole dual loop, with a parade of homes subdivision R.E. plan, McMansion district.  They added a huge austintatious clubhouse and then bled to death, culminating in a foreclosure/bankruptcy last year.

Did Mike, or Joe or anyone involved in El Boqueron visit Thornberry Creek as a point of research?  They had some unforseen early problems with pacing and scheduling tee times and spacing of players that wanted to go around once or twice.

Ironically today, that course has reopened under the new ownership of the Oneida Tribe of Indians. 

The original dual nine hole loop (as well as the added 18 hole championship parade of homes project) was designed by Rick Jacobsen.  I wonder if anyone ever inquired of Jacobsen if he knew of the MacKenzie El Boqueron project, and if he modeled his work ideas on that.

Here is aerial-birds eye showing greens at 1rst (dual)-5th two seperate greens -6th (dual), you can move the image around to see whole routing.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=rdsc2v7nmvv3&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15723625&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

Thornberry Creek website that doesn't have very illustrative pictures of the course, but you can see the monster clubhouse that brought them down. 
http://www.thornberrycreekcc.net/pages/golf.html

[Joe Hancock]

Thanks, RJ....I haven't seen anything on Thornberry Creek.

Mike is doing most of the legwork on research. He may even go to Argentina to look at the original site, although it likely wouldn't change much of what we're proposing to do to fit this masterpiece on the Texas land with as few of changes to MacKenzie's plans as possible.

Mike has seen a good share of Mac's stuff, most recently traveling to Australia and NZ w/ Mr. Edel along for part of the trip.

As David has said before, all the excellent information provided here is greatly appreciated, and in return we hope to do justice to documenting and disseminating information as this project moves along.

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

Hi Joe, obviously any comparison in operating methods between the Thornberry course and El Boqueron is not too relavant due to completely different private-estate vs public course differences.  With the possible exception of spacing of players, and fitting in those going around twice or more and the one loopers, etc.  But even that probably isn't much of an issue given El Boqueron is probably so private that only a handful of players will be out there at any time.  Has anyone given any thought or projected what an ideal number of players/guests on the course might be?

[Bill_McBride]

How many square feet are those double greens?  They sure do look interesting.

Depends on the size of your computer monitor.....

The anticipated size of the greens will be somewhere between 30-40K sq. ft. At least, that's how they scaled out. We'll see what Mike does once he's in the seat of the dozer.

Joe

I use a laptop at the office, so the greens are smaller than at home. 

[David Stamm]

It's great seeing this come together. Mike, the sketches look wonderful. It's comforting to know that such a unique project is in such capable hands. I'm really looking forward to seeing the final outcome!

[Tony Ristola]

Is the routing posted the only documentation for the project that is Dr. M's?

.

[Tony Ristola]

bump

[Joe Hancock]

Tony,

I'll try to get ahold of Mike and make him aware of this thread. He is currently traveling.

Joe

[Tony Ristola]

Tony,

I'll try to get ahold of Mike and make him aware of this thread. He is currently traveling.

Joe

Cheers and safe travels.

[Mike_DeVries]

Is the routing posted the only documentation for the project that is Dr. M's?

.

Tony,

Not sure what you mean by this, but it is the only drawing.  MacK signed the guest book at El Boqueron on March 3, 1930.  It is known that the Anchorena family provided the horses for the course work at Jockey Club so MacK was associated and familiar with the family.  An aerial of the estate and the 9 holes that were built (not MacK's plan, but on the same parcel) is also existing.

Hope that helps,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

  Can anyone indentify and post the name and location of any other 9 double green loop golf courses, that yield a round of 18 holes? 

     Is anyone aware of other experimentations with this sort of configuration historically, and can you cite them?

     How much different is this than the few Japanese courses that have double greens?  Aren't they more for the purpose of having 'winter greens' and are not played in multiple loops from different tees to double up on the possible holes available to be played? 

The only course I know of that is truly a double loop of 9 holes with dual greens (some separate greens divided by 20-50 yards and some one dual green dual pin location design) is right here near me, called Thornberry Creek.  It has been a public course, that opened as the dual 9 hole, then with grandiose plans, morphed into a new 18 holes built in addition to the sporty 9 hole dual loop, with a parade of homes subdivision R.E. plan, McMansion district.  They added a huge austintatious clubhouse and then bled to death, culminating in a foreclosure/bankruptcy last year.

Did Mike, or Joe or anyone involved in El Boqueron visit Thornberry Creek as a point of research?  They had some unforseen early problems with pacing and scheduling tee times and spacing of players that wanted to go around once or twice.

Dick,

First, El Boqueron is not a 9 hole course -- it is 18 holes with 9 double greens.  TOC has 7 double greens and I think that is the most at any existing course.  I am unaware of any other project like this.

The dual greens you mention in Japan and at Thornberry Creek are different situations and not comparable to El Boqueron.  I haven't been to any Japanese courses but my understanding is 2 greens for each hole (36 greens on an 18 hole course) with a summer green and a winter green.  That doesn't quite sound like the same situation as at Thornberry Creek, but people have told me of small 9 hole courses that have 2 pins on the same green, one for the front nine loop and one for the back -- kind of a twist on the 2 different tees for a different back nine.

I was not aware of Thornberry Creek and haven't studied it -- again, I don't think it is not the same situation as El Boqueron.

Best,
Mike

[Tony Ristola]

Is the routing posted the only documentation for the project that is Dr. M's?

.

Tony,

Not sure what you mean by this, but it is the only drawing.  MacK signed the guest book at El Boqueron on March 3, 1930.  It is known that the Anchorena family provided the horses for the course work at Jockey Club so MacK was associated and familiar with the family.  An aerial of the estate and the 9 holes that were built (not MacK's plan, but on the same parcel) is also existing.

Hope that helps,
Mike

Mike,
That's what I was asking... have fun and good luck with the project.

Cheers.