Downhill Lie to an Uphill Green

« **on:** March 29, 2009, 02:43:40 AM »

I played Lake Chabot today and a related thread got me thinking about my last iron shot of the day. I was playing my third shot on the 18th, on a SEVERE downhill lie, 180 yards to the green which was about at my elevation (over a valley). Had I been 40 yards farther down the fairway, the green would have been well above me. The shot is very challenging, since you have to adjust to the much lower trajectory and yet get the ball high enough to reach the top of the hill. It's rare to see anybody hit that green from more than 110 yards out.

I got to wondering, are there good examples of this on very good courses? Is it a good feature?

« **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2009, 05:29:41 AM »

Quote from: Ian_Linford on March 29, 2009, 02:43:40 AM

I played Lake Chabot today and a related thread got me thinking about my last iron shot of the day. I was playing my third shot on the 18th, on a SEVERE downhill lie, 180 yards to the green which was about at my elevation (over a valley). Had I been 40 yards farther down the fairway, the green would have been well above me. The shot is very challenging, since you have to adjust to the much lower trajectory and yet get the ball high enough to reach the top of the hill. It's rare to see anybody hit that green from more than 110 yards out.

I got to wondering, are there good examples of this on very good courses? Is it a good feature?

The 8th and 9th at Huntingdon Valley.

« **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:29:35 AM »

Paxon Hollow #12

« **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:32:14 AM »

« **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:33:14 AM »

photo above is from about 100 yards with a downhill lie and the ball is slightly below your feet.

« **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2009, 12:05:34 PM »

probably the best example of this is augusta #15. i believe that Ran started a thread on this feature a few years ago.

« **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2009, 12:51:11 PM »

Ian,

I've had that same shot a couple times in my rounds there. I've yet to see a more severe downhill lie to an uphill green shot. It'd be nice if someone can post some pics of it...

« **Reply #7 on:** March 29, 2009, 02:22:43 PM »

You could get a shot like this at Yale 10 (pretty sure I did!)

« **Reply #8 on:** March 29, 2009, 03:57:07 PM »

Ian,

Its something I try to avoid, at least for long iron shots like you describe. As you say, in some cases it might be hard to simply hit the ball high enough to get to the green. Even in less drastic situations, the ball flight physics are just too hard to overcome since the ball tends to come out lower, with lower spin, etc. both which just make it hard to hit the green.

« **Reply #9 on:** March 29, 2009, 08:33:23 PM »

Quote from: Kalen Braley on March 29, 2009, 12:51:11 PM

Ian,

I've had that same shot a couple times in my rounds there. I've yet to see a more severe downhill lie to an uphill green shot. It'd be nice if someone can post some pics of it...

Kalen, this doesn't show the uphill nature of the shot very well since it's taken from the top of the mountain. After the last switchback, there is a severe uphill slope to the green:

(I took this picture from the LCGC thread: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36215.0.html)

Thanks Jeff for the comments and D_Malley for the photo. The 18th at Chabot may get away with it because most players will be hitting their 3rd shots to a par 6 from that lie, and there isn't much trouble anywhere around the green (except for the green itself which is a devil).

I hit a 350-yard 3-iron for my second shot last week. Fun to watch.

« **Reply #10 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:28:40 PM »

Ian,

Thanks for posting that. It does give some idea just how steep it is and if you don't get your ball all the way to the bottom of the hill, (which can very easily happen because the grass gets shaggy long as they can't mow it when wet), then its just a brutal approach..

Hopefully somone else can post some pics of what it looks like from the bottom.

« **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2009, 02:17:50 PM »

#17 at Greenbriar Hills CC in St. Louis:
Top of the hill is about 170ish to the green, bottom of the hill is 100 to the green. You can get a pretty good idea of the slope looking at the tree line to the left of the fairway.

Another look at the green:

The area in front of the green is shaved down so a short shot will roll down the hill. The green is pretty skinny (maybe 15 yards deep) and behind the green is a road, so long is bad too (I have ended up over the road, near the 18th tee box and had the fun shot of bouncing it off the road to get it close due to tree overhangs interfering with the straight forward way to play it).

« **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2009, 02:27:14 PM »

I forget which hole it is, but it happens all the time at Westchester. And the green is very small, making the second shot really, really hard.

« **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2009, 02:53:38 PM »

A short drive on the 18th hole of the Olympic Club's Lake Course will leave a 2nd shot off a downhill lie to an elevated green. The 4th hole at Lake Merced (a longer par-4) presents a similar situation.

I am not a big fan of this feature. Maybe, if I was a better golfer, it would not bother me so much.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2009, 02:58:52 PM »

A great example of this is the 12th hole at St. Davids in suburban Philadelphia. To get what some might prefer as a level lie, you'll probably be hitting 3 wood off the tee and then have a stout 190 - 210 yards in.

« **Reply #15 on:** March 30, 2009, 03:16:05 PM »

I've never liked this as a feature on long par fours, but might it be a nice defense on a shortish par five? Maybe the optimal landing area is about 250 off the tee, with a flat lie, but a layup is necessary from that point...where a long drive may leave you with a reachable second but from a downhill lie to an elevated green.

« **Reply #16 on:** March 30, 2009, 09:31:20 PM »

Quote from: Greg Chambers on March 30, 2009, 03:16:05 PM

I've never liked this as a feature on long par fours,

Greg

Why so ? "Difficulty" factor perhaps ?

I quite like the feature - adds to the relative "difficulty" of a hole. Newcastle GC - from memory has a few examples of this.

« **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2009, 06:40:04 AM »

Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on March 29, 2009, 03:57:07 PM

Ian,

Its something I try to avoid, at least for long iron shots like you describe. As you say, in some cases it might be hard to simply hit the ball high enough to get to the green. Even in less drastic situations, the ball flight physics are just too hard to overcome since the ball tends to come out lower, with lower spin, etc. both which just make it hard to hit the green.

If the entrance can accept a bounding approach, I see no problem.

The average guy would never really notice... just another tough shot.

The better player could end up whining, and if this is the case, why not use the opportunity to create a situation that gets under their skin; asking them to hit a shot out of the norm.

.

« **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2009, 09:35:17 AM »

If you take the number of small undulations and bumps in to consideration, it is my guess that you can end up with this situation on just about any Britain & Ireland Links course.

« **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2009, 10:13:43 AM »

Love Golf Design used this feature to good effect at Windermere Golf Club, north of Atlanta. The 3rd hole is a shortish par-5, but the second shot is played off of a downhill, left to right lie to an uphill green that is best approached with a shot coming in from right to left. It was a great feature to offset a very reachable par-5, plus it was how the land naturally laid.

A tougher example can be found at the long par-4 18th at the UGA golf course. I also like this feature here because it is the last hole and it turns the hole into a par-4 1/2.

« **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2009, 04:37:29 PM »

Ian,
That's a shot you need in NE, especially now that players hit it longer, though I wouldn't like it much w/a long iron in my hand.

On my way back from NC I stopped at Caverns CC in Va. and had that shot at least a half dozen times, but only one w/a long iron.

I think it's a good stratagem if you have the right terrain and limit it to a couple occurences per round.

News:

Ian_L

Kyle Harris

D_Malley

D_Malley

D_Malley

D_Malley

Kalen Braley

Mark Arata

Jeff_Brauer

Ian_L

Kalen Braley

Steve Pozaric

Dan_Callahan

David_Tepper

Dan Boerger

Greg Chambers

Kevin Pallier

Tony Ristola

Ally Mcintosh

J_McKenzie

Jim_Kennedy

An Error Has Occurred!