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Bob Jenkins

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2009, 05:20:32 PM »
Dan,

You may be correct that it is a regional tolerance of push carts. I also would guess that the use of power carts (ie. the riding carts) is less in this part of the world and that may be due to the rain, where the softer conditions in winter do not lend themselves to the weight of a power cart.

Bob

Mark Smolens

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2009, 05:36:05 PM »
Mr. Duran, I apologize if you felt that the tone of my posts was in some measure was derisive.  I believed that my tone was responsive to that of yours, and if it offended, that was not my intent.

Your assertion, or rather the assertion of your former manager, that walkers as a general rule, spend less $$ in the pro shop in the grill was -- in my opinion -- ill-founded, baseless, and without substantive demonstrable merit (if I may say that without being considered derisive or offensive).  I'm sorry but I did take offense at the tone of that assertion, with which I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  The same is true of the claim that walkers and pushers fail to replace divots at a greater rate than riders.  Again, I and my friends take pride in the way we treat golf courses that we play, and since most of us walk most of the time, the assertion was (in my view) misplaced in an attempt at a cogent discussion of this issue.

I have no dispute with the fact that there are many golfers, including some at your club, who play quickly and efficiently when riding.  That, alas, is not the general rule, particularly in my personal experience.  Admittedly I live in Chicago, so my season is short -- I will probably only post 60 or 70 scores of rounds played during our season.  But I believe that if you poll course owners with permanent tee times on public courses in our District (I am certain that Frank Jemsek will agree with me because we have discussed this issue), they will tell you that their walking groups play more expeditiously than the riding groups.

Again, please accept my apology for any unintended derision you found in my prior posts.

Guy Nicholson

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2009, 06:06:04 PM »
Re: the grill question -- surely use of a cart is an effect, not a cause, of willingness to spend on other luxuries.

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2009, 07:07:43 PM »
FWIW in regards to walkers being less inclined to spend......

At Secession Club in Beaufort, SC, all play is ambulatory.  Caddies only until recently, and now walking-and-carrying (no pullcarts) are permitted from mid-afternoon onward.

The Secession Pro Shop does a huge merchandise business--the average expenditure-per-round-per-player is about $45, a figure topped at Pine Valley, Pebble Beach, and very few other facilities.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2009, 07:33:06 PM »
Let me tell you a cart story - hopefully it'll make you smile.

I grew up in Tonawanda, NY - a suburb of Buffalo.  I have 3 brothers, my mom never worked, and my dad worked for the State of NY.  We weren't poor by any means, but we didn't have much money left over for non-essentials.

My dad got me hooked on golf, and our town had two fun munis, one of which, Sheridan, held the '62 USGA Publinx.  The other one, Brighton was about 3.5 miles from my house, and a yearly pass cost $65 if you were under 19 yrs old.

I didn't have a car.  But I did have a 3-speed bike with a saddle seat.  I also had a really ugly pull cart that was built like a tank.  This thing had a large fake golf ball at the end of the handle. 

Well, I had to get to the course, so I devised a rig that would stick the handle under the seat, I'd secure it with my bike lock, and I ended up with a golf trailer.

I got funny looks on my way to and from the course.  But I got there, and I played. And played.  And played.

If it wasn't for that old garage sale cart, I'd never have been able to play this game we all love.

JohnV

Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2009, 07:42:23 PM »
Push/pull carts at private courses are definitely a regional thing.  The west coast was always more amenable to them.  I think the reason for this is that caddies were the preferred method back East for much longer.

As for speed of riders vs walkers, it really doesn't matter unless you are one of the first groups out.  After a while the pace is what it is and a walker can keep up just as well as a rider.  Also, it never feels as slow when you are walking.  In a cart, you get to your ball and sit.  If you're walking, you get to your ball and have a significantly shorter wait if any.

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2009, 07:45:51 PM »
I think we are also trying to compare apples and oranges when it comes to the divot debate.

My first reaction was... these guys are idiots.  

1.  How does a walker repair a divot without a sand bottle?  Up north, the fairways are bentgrass so you "replace" the divots... not fill them up with sand like with bermudagrass.

2.  You can land an airplane on a bermudagrass fairway and not do any damage.  But do golf carts track and rut up bentgrass fairways?

All of us might want to mention what kind of grass exists in our fairways and roughs before weighing in on this topic (which, I might add, has turned out to be very, very amusing).



Roger, who's the idiot?  Assumptions are always dangerous.  I walk.  I have a speed cart. I'm a member of a private club.  Last Sunday I played in 3 1/2 hours.  And finally, I carry a full size sand and seed bottle which I am able to fill at three separate points in the round and rarely come in with sand left.  

Divots are not replaced.  They don't take well and the birds flip them over to get the worms underneath.  The divots go in the rough where a rotary mower can cut them up.

Golf carts create damage in the winter months when the fairways are wet.

The course is Rye/Poa/Bent.  

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2009, 08:09:48 PM »
My club has two courses (separated by several miles) and two policies.  I won't go into the history of and reasons for that, but at the more prestigious and busy of the two courses, you cannot bring your own pull cart; you must rent one of the clubs' for $10.  The killer for me is that the rentals are black Sun Mt. speed carts, and I have owned one since before we acquired that course, yet cannot use it.  Aarrgghh...

At the other course, you may use your own cart, and I'm now about 50-50 on carrying vs. using a pull cart.  I don't care about the stigma; I'm 56 and in very good shape, but my back hurts if I carry more than a couple of days a week.  It's just the way it is.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2009, 08:42:53 PM »
I think we are also trying to compare apples and oranges when it comes to the divot debate.

My first reaction was... these guys are idiots.  

1.  How does a walker repair a divot without a sand bottle?  Up north, the fairways are bentgrass so you "replace" the divots... not fill them up with sand like with bermudagrass.

2.  You can land an airplane on a bermudagrass fairway and not do any damage.  But do golf carts track and rut up bentgrass fairways?

All of us might want to mention what kind of grass exists in our fairways and roughs before weighing in on this topic (which, I might add, has turned out to be very, very amusing).



Roger, who's the idiot?  Assumptions are always dangerous.  I walk.  I have a speed cart. I'm a member of a private club.  Last Sunday I played in 3 1/2 hours.  And finally, I carry a full size sand and seed bottle which I am able to fill at three separate points in the round and rarely come in with sand left.  

Divots are not replaced.  They don't take well and the birds flip them over to get the worms underneath.  The divots go in the rough where a rotary mower can cut them up.

Golf carts create damage in the winter months when the fairways are wet.

The course is Rye/Poa/Bent.  

Mr. Cosgrove,

I think you misread my post.  With the benefit of hindsight, it wasn't written very well.  I was trying to make a point that folks were arguing over maintenance on two very different grasses.  My first reaction, after hearing that walkers take better care of the course was, "How can walkers repair divots when they don't have sand bottles?"  Then I realized that I have been on bermudagrass for so long I forgot what its like to replace a divot on bentgrass (not rye and poa).  And I think if you take a poll... divots are still replaced at most facilities... especially those 2 foot long bentgrass beaver pelts.

I am on your side... read my earlier posts on this thread... you friggin' "genius."   :D

Carl Johnson

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2009, 09:42:51 PM »
Let me tell you a cart story - hopefully it'll make you smile.

I grew up in Tonawanda, NY - a suburb of Buffalo.  I have 3 brothers, my mom never worked, and my dad worked for the State of NY.  We weren't poor by any means, but we didn't have much money left over for non-essentials.

My dad got me hooked on golf, and our town had two fun munis, one of which, Sheridan, held the '62 USGA Publinx.  The other one, Brighton was about 3.5 miles from my house, and a yearly pass cost $65 if you were under 19 yrs old.

I didn't have a car.  But I did have a 3-speed bike with a saddle seat.  I also had a really ugly pull cart that was built like a tank.  This thing had a large fake golf ball at the end of the handle. 

Well, I had to get to the course, so I devised a rig that would stick the handle under the seat, I'd secure it with my bike lock, and I ended up with a golf trailer.

I got funny looks on my way to and from the course.  But I got there, and I played. And played.  And played.

If it wasn't for that old garage sale cart, I'd never have been able to play this game we all love.

Dan, this patent isn't yours by any chance, is it?

Title:Bicycle attachment for trailering a pull-type golf cart Document Type and Number:United States Patent 5482304

Abstract:A trailering device (10) for being secured between a bicycle (12) and a pull-type golf cart (16) such that as the bicycle (12) is ridden, the pull-type golf cart (16) is pulled behind. The trailering device (10) includes a connecting rod (26), a bicycle attachment member (32) secured at one end of the connecting rod (26), and a golf cart attachment member (54) secured to another end of the connecting rod (26). The bicycle attachment member (32) is releasably securable to the bicycle seat post (14) and the golf cart attachment member (54) is releasably securable to the golf cart (16) at the frame (18) or handle (20).

John Shimp

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2009, 09:59:08 PM »
This is an honest question.  Do cart fees cover the cost and a payback on the carts themselves and the construction and maintenance cost of the paths?

I don't think clubs should make room to store someone's personal pull cart for the price of bag storage.   Maybe double the bag fee?  People would still be getting a deal versus mandated  pull cart rental. 

In my view, carrying is golf at its simplest and the way nearly all of us grew up playing.  A private club should never charge to walk and carry, but should consider limiting the times to support a caddie program or cart play uniformity for certain time blocks.  Divot fill and pickup should be part of the morning maintenance work.  Many cart players don't fill divots regularly particularly after sorry shots :-X  So there is plenty of divot followup to do in addition to walking golfer divots.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2009, 10:59:47 PM »
This is an honest question.  Do cart fees cover the cost and a payback on the carts themselves and the construction and maintenance cost of the paths?

I don't think clubs should make room to store someone's personal pull cart for the price of bag storage.   Maybe double the bag fee?  People would still be getting a deal versus mandated  pull cart rental. 


John, that's what we do at our club - double storage rate for bag of clubs + pull/push cart.  No charge for using your own Sun Mtn cart.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2009, 11:11:36 AM »
My original response to this thread was made with reference to the southwest U.S.A.  I am sure there are regional and even local differences.  Obviously, the cultural practices in the UK are different as well.

Mark Smolens,

I am not offended at the least by what you believe and say.  My experience is obviously different than yours.  I do believe that people are entitled to their opinions, but at the same time, I think some opinions are much better than others.

Bill McBride,

Unless you are arguing that riders relative to walkers are slower over their shots, how do you make sense of what you state?  I am sure you have heard of the accordion effect in roads and highways.  Perhaps riders are inefficient in their use of carts because they're going to have to wait for their next shot anyways.

I will wager your favorite drink on the following:  a match at whatever stakes, doesn't matter who are partners, you, Eric Smith, my son, and me in any riding configuration you like (2 to 4 carts) first off at the Dunes; the same next day except we walk, carrying, pulling, or pushing.  Which do you think would be faster?  With most people I play with, slow and fast players, riding would probably cut at least a half an hour.

It goes without saying that if the group in front of you is on a five hour round and you can't get around them, it probably doesn't matter if you're riding or walking.  But if that group is finishing in three hours, very few walkers I know can keep up.  I've never played with a group (foursome) of walkers in the U.S. which could finish comfortably in 3.5 hours.  I've done it many times with riders.  At a high volume private club in north Texas, there are big $$$ wolf games played by fivesomes starting late weekday mornings which typically play in well under four hours.  As they should, the walkers give way when these riders approach.

John Shimp,

Do you think that clubs put in cart paths and operate a fleet to generate a loss?  In many parts of the U.S., could a club operate without having carts for its members or customers to use?  Do cart paths serve other purposes than just getting "lazy" golfers on their motorized carts from point A to point B?

As to your expectations of daily maintenance practices, in today's economy, I am thankful when the greens are mowed.  BTW, assuming that walkers and riders are equally prone to hitting "sorry shots", what do you think is the probability that a divot is going to be sanded by a walker who carries no sand as opposed to rider who does?  Or are you suggesting that riders are less consciencious than walkers?

Jason M,

I walked Jack Rabbit on an early morning in June a few years ago and I was drenched in sweat within a couple of holes.  My friend Scott Smith at Northgate walked nearly always year round and he said that one gets used to the humid heat.  I am glad to hear that your club allows pull carts.  I am surprised.  I've heard that Lakewood in Dallas is also doing it.  I talked to the membership director a couple of weeks ago at Great Southwest GC in Grand Prairie about walking and pull carts, and she said no to both (riding carts are required during weekend and holiday mornings, pull carts are never allowed- "too muni").  Needless to say, I remain a free agent.   


Will Smith

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2009, 01:47:18 PM »
I noticed at Bandon that pull/push carts are starting to become very popular. I saw a few people take them across the greens like they do in Australia. A question for the superintendents out there- Do you like this as it spreads out the traffic or would you prefer them off the greens?

I tried one a couple of weeks back for the afternoon round of a 36 hole day, and enjoyed it. Only tipped it over once.

Mark Smolens

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2009, 02:16:51 PM »
I have never taken my push cart across a putting green -- tho I have so far had no qualms about taking it up onto a tee.  I am also wondering what the superintendents on this site think about the practice?  I recognize that my bag and push cart weigh much less than I do with my bag across my back.  My guess would be that the amount of weight dispersed across the three wheels would not adversely affect the green, but I would like the input from someone more educated than I before I consider doing so.  Would the amount of moisture in/on the greens factor into the equation?

Evan Fleisher

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2009, 02:19:22 PM »
Dude!

I did the same thing growing up in Miami.  Mom would give us a fwe bucks on Saturday morning to go play a round at the Maimi Lakes Country Club's (now the Don Shula Golf Club) "exective" course.  To get there, we'd bike-lock out pull-cart's handle to the end of our Huffy bike's "banana" seat and trailer-tow our clubs to the course.

What great memories...  :)

Let me tell you a cart story - hopefully it'll make you smile.

I grew up in Tonawanda, NY - a suburb of Buffalo.  I have 3 brothers, my mom never worked, and my dad worked for the State of NY.  We weren't poor by any means, but we didn't have much money left over for non-essentials.

My dad got me hooked on golf, and our town had two fun munis, one of which, Sheridan, held the '62 USGA Publinx.  The other one, Brighton was about 3.5 miles from my house, and a yearly pass cost $65 if you were under 19 yrs old.

I didn't have a car.  But I did have a 3-speed bike with a saddle seat.  I also had a really ugly pull cart that was built like a tank.  This thing had a large fake golf ball at the end of the handle. 

Well, I had to get to the course, so I devised a rig that would stick the handle under the seat, I'd secure it with my bike lock, and I ended up with a golf trailer.

I got funny looks on my way to and from the course.  But I got there, and I played. And played.  And played.

If it wasn't for that old garage sale cart, I'd never have been able to play this game we all love.
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

John Shimp

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2009, 02:25:03 PM »
Lou,
Golf is a tough business.  People make lots of investments that don't work out with all the right intentions and expectations.  I asked a simple question of whether carts make a good return for clubs on the cart leases and on the paths.  I was looking for facts on cart returns not questions.
Do you know the answer?

Lou_Duran

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2009, 02:47:55 PM »
John,

I once asked a Putt-Putt operator in somewhat of an incredulous tone whether keeping his courses and game rooms open 24/7 made any business sense.  He was a good friend at the time and he replied with some degree of sarcasm and contempt that no, he did it just so he could lose money.  Years later, a common acquaintance told me that this guy is considered by the franchisor to be the top operator in the nation.

Your question appears to be more of a statement (that carts are not economically justifiable).  My suggestion is that the fact that they're so prevelant and that the management companies are nearly unanimous in their advocacy speaks for itself.  And while current experience demonstrates that relatively few things are failure proof, under most "normal" conditions, carts do provide a considerable benefit to the bottom line with profit margins reported in the 40% to 70% in my part of the country.  Of course, given the fixed cost nature of the fleet, infrastructure, and operations, the higher the utilization, the more profitable they are.

Maybe Sean Busch if he is following this can address the financials from a broader and more detailed perspectives.  Perhaps Chris Cupit can provide some numbers from his experience.   

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2009, 04:46:51 PM »
Wussies?!?!?

Dude...I'm an ENGINEER!...and I was 10...I thought it was sheer brilliance!  ::)

Dude!

I did the same thing growing up in Miami.  Mom would give us a fwe bucks on Saturday morning to go play a round at the Maimi Lakes Country Club's (now the Don Shula Golf Club) "exective" course.  To get there, we'd bike-lock out pull-cart's handle to the end of our Huffy bike's "banana" seat and trailer-tow our clubs to the course.

What great memories...  :)

Let me tell you a cart story - hopefully it'll make you smile.

I grew up in Tonawanda, NY - a suburb of Buffalo.  I have 3 brothers, my mom never worked, and my dad worked for the State of NY.  We weren't poor by any means, but we didn't have much money left over for non-essentials.

My dad got me hooked on golf, and our town had two fun munis, one of which, Sheridan, held the '62 USGA Publinx.  The other one, Brighton was about 3.5 miles from my house, and a yearly pass cost $65 if you were under 19 yrs old.

I didn't have a car.  But I did have a 3-speed bike with a saddle seat.  I also had a really ugly pull cart that was built like a tank.  This thing had a large fake golf ball at the end of the handle. 

Well, I had to get to the course, so I devised a rig that would stick the handle under the seat, I'd secure it with my bike lock, and I ended up with a golf trailer.

I got funny looks on my way to and from the course.  But I got there, and I played. And played.  And played.

If it wasn't for that old garage sale cart, I'd never have been able to play this game we all love.

You guys were wussies.    ;) I carried them on my back while riding my Schwinn one-handed...the hard part was riding in spikes because your feet would sometimes just fly off the pedals...
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

PThomas

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2009, 04:56:36 PM »
We are responding to the wishes of the membership and whatever income loss resuklts is more than outweighed by the good will created by giving the membership more true choices.

nomination for great thought of the year!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2009, 05:06:43 PM »
Evan
Wussies?!?!?

Dude...I'm an ENGINEER!...and I was 10...I thought it was sheer brilliance!  ::)


Evan,

I remember another engineering marvel, found in the GCA archives:









Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2009, 05:10:01 PM »
Lou,
Golf is a tough business.  People make lots of investments that don't work out with all the right intentions and expectations.  I asked a simple question of whether carts make a good return for clubs on the cart leases and on the paths.  I was looking for facts on cart returns not questions.
Do you know the answer?

In 2006, our last full year open (that's shocking), we spent $50,400 on a cart lease with a maintenance contract.  Cart revenue was $256,000.  If you allocate electricity and cart staff labor the revenue far outweighs the expense.  Cart path construction for 18 holes was around $350,000 and the cart barn was around $400,000 so even allocating depreciation doesn't even come close.  We considered removing our cart paths but felt it was unfair to our elderly, infirm, out of shape members and their guests to lock the carts in the barn every day it rained the night before.  I understand this at places like Bandon and Whistling Straits or even a new private club just opening.  But removing cart paths at an established club is really tough on the old, existing membership (unless, of course, the secret plan is to get rid of them or to preserve your course when it is wet and vulnerable).

Will Peterson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2009, 05:49:13 PM »
My opinion on the subject has recently changed.  Growing up playing junior golf there was nothing worse than a pull cart.  Although I always championed walking, I carried that idea with me for years.  My mind was forever changed while living in the UK.  After joining a club on the outskirts of London, I noticed that the majority of members, regardless of age, used them.  I was then very surprised to see that a large portion of the fields at other club's Open events were also using them.  I had never seen low handicap players use pull carts, but it made complete sense with the events being 36 holes in a day.  By the end of the summer I had used one on more than one occasion when playing 36 or more in a day.  My St Andrew's trip would have consisted of a lot less golf without one.

I think it may take awhile for the stigma attached to their use with younger players to diminish, but all in all I think they are a good thing.  It is quite obvious watching just about any 1st tee in the US that the majority of those heading out could use the walk. 

mike_beene

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2009, 08:35:59 PM »
Push cart has become my favorite way to play.

Evan Fleisher

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2009, 10:49:23 PM »
It was hot, and I was hungry...not wait, that's a line from "Real Genius"...but it was hot...

Evan
Wussies?!?!?

Dude...I'm an ENGINEER!...and I was 10...I thought it was sheer brilliance!  ::)


Evan,

I remember another engineering marvel, found in the GCA archives:









Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!