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Anthony Gray

Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2009, 11:15:11 AM »


  Does the use of a push cart signify a milestone in your life?

  Push cart........annual prostate exam.......alimony.........sportscar........hybrids....hair replacement.......pants with elastic......birth control for your children......caregiving........gynecomastia......decreased flow.......white tee boxes.......the blue pill......


  Anthony


Warwick Loton

Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2009, 11:16:32 AM »

motorised carts are reserved for amputees and those in the 90s.

thats a bit harsh, no?

I wasn't expressing an opinion - just reporting my experience.

That's literally what happens at my club. Other people with compelling medical reasons are also permitted to use ride-on carts. Not sure whether they have to formerly apply for permission. I wouldn't think the club owns more than 5 or 6 of those things, and it's very rare to see golfers using them. This is on the sandbelt in Melbourne, Australia.


Mark Smolens

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2009, 11:18:18 AM »
Lou, are you trying to say that two people riding in a cart play faster than I do with my push cart?  I will take that bet.  And that's with the two riding to their balls, sitting there while one guy hits, then driving to the other guy's ball.  Put the carts on the path, and it's absolutely no contest.  Go out to We-Ko-Pa and time the groups who walk with the complimentary speed carts vs.  the groups in carts on the path. . .  I've said numerous times on this site that a round on Saguaro is the best public golf course experience in the Valley for the very reason that walking is not only permitted, but encouraged.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for a course whose business model is dependent upon people unwilling to walk.  Yes, I will sometimes ride if the other three in my group are walking (but I will bitch before I do), or if like last Saturday it's 40 outside with 25 mph winds -- thank god for covers and my Cart Cat heater! -- but walking makes the game so much more pleasurable, and lugging 14 clubs is a bitch.  We have courses here in the Chicago District where carts are indeed reserved for those with medical necessities (Onwentsia springs to mind as one), and I'm unaware of any uprising among those memberships to change that. . .

And yes, Anthony, I did enjoy the Pine Meadow two man scramble on Saturday where I (as a 50+) was permitted to hit from the blue tees.


Tom Yost

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2009, 11:23:05 AM »
I say anything that promotes walking is a good thing!

After trying out one of the SpeedCarts at We-Ko-Pa this fall, I went out and bought one.   Having already gotten over the stigma of having to play off the ladies tees, I'm not bothered by anyone looking down their nose at me for using a push cart.   ;D


Anthony Gray

Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2009, 11:29:24 AM »
I say anything that promotes walking is a good thing!



 Agreed....Whatever it takes to get 'em out there.

  Anthony


Bob_Huntley

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2009, 12:22:14 PM »
We encourage walking and the Sun Mountain carts are available free of charge for for both members and guests.

Bob

Carl Johnson

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2009, 12:28:49 PM »
My opinion (as a member at Roger's club).  Motorized carts are the stigma, if anything is.  They are all over the public and resort courses (just like the guys who meet you in the parking lot at many of these places and want to carry your clubs 25 yards to the club house).  However, when motorized carts are used under conditions such that walking won't work for the golfer, they're o.k., and in those cases I don't consider them to be a stigma.

It's a cultural thing we could learn from the Scots, from whom we learned golf.  At Royal Troon, one of the stuffiest clubs I've visited, they may have motorized carts for the those with medical problems, as many Scottish clubs do, but I didn't see them.  On the other hand, they'll rent you a bare bones pull cart for several pounds or you can use your own.  One of their members loaned one of our group his personal pull cart to use so we only had to rent three from the club (although the member was not permitted by club rule to share a drink with us, as visitors, in the club bar -- go where you want with that).

Exercise.   Walking a course is low level exercise, but it does have value and is better than none at all.  Funny thing is that my sense is that relatively more younger golfers than older golfers ride at our club, which is not to say we don't have lots of younger members who walk (at age 67, I'm one of them).  Still, I'm amazed at all the young, apparently heathy young people who ride.  (I'll ignore the we-need-the-cart-to-carry-the-beer argument.)  For me walking is an essential part of the game.  If not mistaken I believe the PGA, LPGA and USGA buy into that, too.

Walking carrying vs. walking pushing or pulling.  If only the old or infirm use push/pull carts, then why have the caddie carry your bag, young man?  If you need him or her for advice, bring the caddie along but you carry the bag.

Speed of play.  Except for those so-called golf courses with long walks from green to the next tee (e.g., typical residential development "golf courses" in this area), speed of play has everything to do with the players' approach to the game and virtually nothing to do with walking vs. riding.   Some golfers play slow, some medium and some fast.

Revenue.  Raise everyone's dues?  Or charge $X per round of golf regardless of whether the golfer takes a buggy?  But wait, in joining the golf club and paying dues aren't we already paying to play golf.  We're a golf club.  We join to play golf and pay dues to play golf.  We ought to be able to walk and carry or push/pull any time we want to, at no extra charge.  But, riders do pay extra for carts (easy for me to say because mostly I walk).  That's what we do now at Roger's club, which is the way it ought to be.

Regarding Golfweek, also from the same issue, see: http://www.golfweek.com/story/toy-box-031009
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 04:27:09 PM by Carl Johnson »

Lou_Duran

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2009, 12:40:03 PM »
Lou, are you trying to say that two people riding in a cart play faster than I do with my push cart?  I will take that bet.  And that's with the two riding to their balls, sitting there while one guy hits, then driving to the other guy's ball.  Put the carts on the path, and it's absolutely no contest.  

No, I am saying that one can ride from point A to point B much faster most of the time than walking it.  I will bet you any amount of money you like that I can play faster riding than you can walking, holding all other things equal.

There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.

The best chance for us walkers is to demonstrate that we can keep up, pay our share, and fix our divots.  Too many walkers fall short on all three.  A past club manager once told me that with great consistency, those who walked also spent the least in the pro shop (not including carts) and the grill.  Obviously, clubs prefer members whose monthly bill is somewhat larger than the bare minimum for dues and taxes.      


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2009, 12:57:56 PM »
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.

There absolutely is a question.  Indeed, unless a course has excessive green to tee distances I think you are flat out wrong.  But that's for a different thread.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Smolens

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2009, 12:59:25 PM »
"There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest."

If this is true at your private club, then you are the great exception in the golf world, but your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on the world of public course golf of which I am a denizen.  Yes, you in a cart vs. me walking will allow you to be faster.  Do you play a lot of golf by yourself in a cart?  Do they make you pay for the full cart?  Most people I see have two players in a cart.  And they do sit there while their partner hits, then drive over to their fellow competitor's ball.  If they don't do that at your club, great for all of you.  

But please don't make silly generalizations that walkers don't fix their divots, keep up, or pay their share.  The reason cart users should pay more is because they damage the course far more than any walker in a push cart.  And riders spend more $$ in the pro shop and grill?  With "great consistency?"  I can see why he's a "past" club manager if that's any indication of his business sense (or total lack thereof).

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2009, 01:00:24 PM »
Lou, are you trying to say that two people riding in a cart play faster than I do with my push cart?  I will take that bet.  And that's with the two riding to their balls, sitting there while one guy hits, then driving to the other guy's ball.  Put the carts on the path, and it's absolutely no contest.  

No, I am saying that one can ride from point A to point B much faster most of the time than walking it.  I will bet you any amount of money you like that I can play faster riding than you can walking, holding all other things equal.

There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.

The best chance for us walkers is to demonstrate that we can keep up, pay our share, and fix our divots.  Too many walkers fall short on all three.  A past club manager once told me that with great consistency, those who walked also spent the least in the pro shop (not including carts) and the grill.  Obviously, clubs prefer members whose monthly bill is somewhat larger than the bare minimum for dues and taxes.      



I agree with Lou,

I walk 90% of the time but ride when I have a guest who is not up to walking.

When riding it is a much shorter round.

Bob

Roger Wolfe

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2009, 01:08:56 PM »

Speed of play. 

Revenue. 


The two items above are really the only thing we think about in terms of club management and walking.  I have always considered golf carts an operating expense, especially when I ran a daily fee club.  You were welcome to walk or ride... you still paid the same price.  I believe the "cart fee" comes from 1. state taxing authorities and 2. back when the pro owned the cart concession.  I included this in a survey at a private club and, as expected, we could not come to an agreement on what to do... it was split 50/50.  We proposed a dues increase of $70 per month that would abolish cart fees once and for all.  The walkers howled and the riders rejoiced!  But no luck.  We still have the same system.  But, in the end, the club is funded by the same bucket of money.  Those who use the club the most want the expenses spread out evenly among the membership... those who use it the least want as much "a la carte" as possible.  Now that is a battle neither side will ever win.

The only reason I would recommend a very small walking fee (maybe $3) is due to the divot issues presented by the walkers.  The push carts are actually quite helpful in the "war on divots" since the new ones are usually equipped with a bottle of some kind.  We send a fleet of maintenance employees out every Monday to fix the walkers' divots.  I have never run the numbers.. but it can't be that much.

As for the speed issue... who is kidding who? Fastest - carts on the fairways... next is walking... a distant "turd" is carts restricted to the paths... and I do mean "turd!"  For 5 handicaps and below... walking and carts on the path are about the same (fairways and grens).  For hackers... carts on the path is an absolute nightmare.

My two cents....  I ran an upscale daily fee in Stafford, VA from 1997 to 2001 with a Japanese owner who insisted we keep the carts on the paths.  With a high slope and rating you can imagine what we went through on a daily basis to keep it 4:40 or faster.  I lived pace of play for 5 seasons... charts and graphs and the whole nine yards.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 02:22:06 PM by Roger Wolfe »

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2009, 02:24:22 PM »
My opinion (as a member at Roger's club).  . . .

Revenue.  Raise everyone's dues?  Or charge $X per round of golf regardless of whether the golfer takes a buggy?  But wait, in joining the golf club and paying dues aren't we already paying to play golf.  We're a golf club.  We join to play golf and pay dues to play golf.  We ought to be able to walk and carry or push/pull any time we want to, at no extra charge.  [Clarification: But, riders should and do pay extra for the buggies (easy for me to say because mostly I walk).]  That's what we do now at Roger's club, which is the way it ought to be.


This paragraph changed to clarify.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 04:29:52 PM by Carl Johnson »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2009, 03:18:40 PM »
"There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest."

If this is true at your private club, then you are the great exception in the golf world, but your opinion has no bearing whatsoever on the world of public course golf of which I am a denizen.  Yes, you in a cart vs. me walking will allow you to be faster.  Do you play a lot of golf by yourself in a cart?  Do they make you pay for the full cart?  Most people I see have two players in a cart.  And they do sit there while their partner hits, then drive over to their fellow competitor's ball.  If they don't do that at your club, great for all of you.  

But please don't make silly generalizations that walkers don't fix their divots, keep up, or pay their share.  The reason cart users should pay more is because they damage the course far more than any walker in a push cart.  And riders spend more $$ in the pro shop and grill?  With "great consistency?"  I can see why he's a "past" club manager if that's any indication of his business sense (or total lack thereof).

Mark S,

You should know that I am a huge proponent of walking.  I was an early 'Walking Member" in the USGA's program, and heavily lobbied the USGA to use its bully pulpit with the industry.  I took on American Golf Corp.'s heavy hand in pushing riding at its clubs under ownership and management.  I've studied the issue extensively over the last 30 years and my generalizations are hardly "silly".  What I've described reflects the issues on riding vs. walking in this country accurately.

Your derisive tone is not unusual in either camp- those who can't tolerate walkers or those who believe there is no place for riding carts.  It is not helpful either.  Walking and riding have their advantages and disadvantages.  I see no reason why it has to be one or the other, nor do I have a problem with each paying their own way.  If walking was truly faster, caused less damage, and contributed equally to the course's bottom line, we would not be having this conversation.

BTW, my comments are based on over 25 years of experience at a two private clubs that were operated more closely to a daily-fee- they were accessible to nearly anyone who could pay the monthly dues or the modest guest fees.  I have also played on annual subscriptions at two daily-fee courses, as well as at some two hundred other public facilities.  Holding everything else equal, carts are faster at public courses as well.

Regarding the manager whose worth you so demean, he took a higher paying job with a better club which included an equity participation.  The last I heard, both he and the club are doing very well.

 

   

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2009, 04:14:39 PM »
There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.

The best chance for us walkers is to demonstrate that we can keep up, pay our share, and fix our divots.  Too many walkers fall short on all three.  A past club manager once told me that with great consistency, those who walked also spent the least in the pro shop (not including carts) and the grill.  Obviously, clubs prefer members whose monthly bill is somewhat larger than the bare minimum for dues and taxes.   

Lou,

   One of the really interesting things about this thread is that it really illustrates how different things are from place to place.  At my home course, walkers tend to play more quickly and tend to be more diligent when it comes to divots and ball marks than non walkers.  I suspect that this has as much to do with short green to tee walks and the relative age of each group. 

Kyle Harris

Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2009, 04:19:26 PM »
At least 300 of our members own pull/push carts and another 100 to 150 rent them from us when they play.  Of course the majority of our members walk, and the majority of those members are over the age of 50, so simple demographics might explain why we have so many push carts.   The fee to rent a pull cart is 1/4 of the fee for a motorized cart.

I would be interested to hear from a superintendent whether the big three wheel push carts do any harm when it's wet.  It never made sense to me that on really wet days where it's cart path only, we still allow the big three wheeled push carts on the course.  I can always see the tracks from those carts later on in the day. 

Cory,

It's really no worse than carrying your bag. In fact, carrying your own bag is more weight distributed over a much smaller area when you work out the ratio.

Which is heavier? The Pull Cart or your body (even after all the weight you've lost!)?

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2009, 04:22:02 PM »
I think we are also trying to compare apples and oranges when it comes to the divot debate.

My first reaction was... these guys are idiots.  

1.  How does a walker repair a divot without a sand bottle?  Up north, the fairways are bentgrass so you "replace" the divots... not fill them up with sand like with bermudagrass.

2.  You can land an airplane on a bermudagrass fairway and not do any damage.  But do golf carts track and rut up bentgrass fairways?

All of us might want to mention what kind of grass exists in our fairways and roughs before weighing in on this topic (which, I might add, has turned out to be very, very amusing).


Dan Herrmann

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Bob Jenkins

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2009, 04:32:34 PM »
I am a member of a private club in Vancouver and the club has always had many push / pull carts (not the Sun Mountain speed carts) available for no charge. With the completion of a new pro shop which has plenty of storage space, they will now store  your Sun Mountain speed cart for a $15 per month charge. It seems strange to me that they do not charge for club storage in the pro shop but if you want to store your speed cart there, you have to pay.

Like many others posting above, I have always preferred to carry but by the end of a round, my back is in pretty bad shape. The speed cart is the only way to go now, save for having a caddie.

Bob J

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2009, 04:35:32 PM »
Bob,
Oregon/Washington/BC never had an isue with carts.  I think it came from all the rain and not wanting to set your bag on the ground (pre-stand bag).

When I was a member of a club in Oregon, all the walkers used the push carts when the ground was wet.

Perhaps it's a regional thing?

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2009, 04:40:11 PM »
There used to be a stigma in the US to allow push carts.  It was seen as a public course thing.  Thankfully, that stigma is largely gone.

My club allows walking anytime (yes even Saturday at 8:00 AM) for no charge.

Push Carts are allowed anytime and cost $7 for 18 holes and $4 for nne holes.

Carts are $17 for 18 holes and $10 for 9 holes.

When carts are restricted to paths, walking and/or push carts are faster for most people.

When it's no restrictions re: cart paths, carts can certainly play faster.

We are responding to the wishes of the membership and whatever income loss resuklts is more than outweighed by the good will created by giving the membership more true choices.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2009, 04:42:12 PM »
There is some info on the walking golfer website below about the benefits of walking.

http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/

A study in CO showed that carrying and pushing burn about the same number of calories, while pushing is obviously much easier on your body. I will use my push cart for tournaments or on days where I hope to play more than 18. I like to carry about 10 clubs usually so my bag is very light.

http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/Physical_Benefits_GXEC.html

Push carts are far superior to pull parts due to the better ergonomics. Pull carts can wrench on your shoulder, especially on uphills.

I recently reviewed a Clicgear 2.0 push cart on site and was very positive about it. The new push carts have a lot of user friendly features and are very easy to open/ close.

http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/Clicgear_2.html

I golfed and caddied a lot in Ireland growing up and many many people used either "powacaddy" push carts or pull carts. No stigma there at all regardless of age or ability.

I think it would be awesome if golf clubs would rent power push carts and provide push carts for their members. I am sure the maintenance costs on a power push cart is way less than that of a motorized cart which would allow the club to make money there. The turf maintenance costs would also be significantly less and at the time of construction not having to build cart paths would save even more money (although admittedly it would reduce your potential clientele).

With USGA Junior golf events mandating push carts, it is good to see the next generation growing up walking while putting less pressure on their backs. If this does indeed move into the college ranks then pushcarts will be even more accepted in the future.

I see a lot of walkers at Pumpkin Ridge using push carts - many of them in their 30s and 40s - so I think the stigma is fading.

O yeah, and at Pumpkin there is no way you could say that Cart Golfers play faster than Walking Golfers. Sometimes it is true and sometimes it is incredibly false. It depends on the golfers.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2009, 04:45:47 PM »
Lou, are you trying to say that two people riding in a cart play faster than I do with my push cart?  I will take that bet.  And that's with the two riding to their balls, sitting there while one guy hits, then driving to the other guy's ball.  Put the carts on the path, and it's absolutely no contest.  

No, I am saying that one can ride from point A to point B much faster most of the time than walking it.  I will bet you any amount of money you like that I can play faster riding than you can walking, holding all other things equal.

There is absolutely no question that carts are faster than walking.  I know a number of five and six-somes who can play in three hours and under, often playing for considerable sums of money.  Given equal concern for the speed of play and similar playing ability, it is no contest.

The best chance for us walkers is to demonstrate that we can keep up, pay our share, and fix our divots.  Too many walkers fall short on all three.  A past club manager once told me that with great consistency, those who walked also spent the least in the pro shop (not including carts) and the grill.  Obviously, clubs prefer members whose monthly bill is somewhat larger than the bare minimum for dues and taxes.      



I don't really buy the "carts are faster than walking" argument.  Obviously carts get from the tee to the tee shot faster than walkers, that's why cart riders are forever racing out there and then standing with arms crossed, aggravated by walkers in front of them.

However, the walking 4 some is playing just as fast as the cart riding 4 some in terms of time on the course, it's just the pace that is different.  Cart golf is race and wait, walking is a steady pace.

I'm talking about a foursome of riders behind a foursome of walkers.  Now one of each, cart riding is faster.

Scott Warren

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Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2009, 04:46:25 PM »
at Pumpkin there is no way you could say that Cart Golfers play faster than Walking Golfers. Sometimes it is true and sometimes it is incredibly false. It depends on the golfers.

I think that hits the nail on the head. A fast golfer is fast on foot or not, and a slow player, likewise.

Jason McNamara

Re: Are Pull/Push Carts That Bad?
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2009, 05:06:15 PM »
I don't really buy the "carts are faster than walking" argument.  Obviously carts get from the tee to the tee shot faster than walkers, that's why cart riders are forever racing out there and then standing with arms crossed, aggravated by walkers in front of them.

However, the walking 4 some is playing just as fast as the cart riding 4 some in terms of time on the course, it's just the pace that is different.  Cart golf is race and wait, walking is a steady pace.

I'm talking about a foursome of riders behind a foursome of walkers.  Now one of each, cart riding is faster.

Carts *can* be faster than walkers, but cart-takers are very often (usually?) not operated in a fashion which promotes a shorter round.  ("I'm going to wait for my buddy to hit, and then we'll drive 30 feet left to get to my shot.")   So yeah, what Scott said.

Lou, my past club in Houston had the Sun Mountain carts with the fat tires, and they were great for walking rounds in the (6-month) Houston summer.  I think it was $10/round (v. reasonable given we also have caddies and it's a well-regarded course).