[Matt_Ward]

Robert:

Kudos to you -- I got that kind of detailed info and you were on the phone in finance class. Appreciate the non-tap-dance reply.

My God -- thank you so much.

Would you be able to provide a Doak number for it ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Robert:

Kudos to you -- I got that kind of detailed info and you were on the phone in finance class. Appreciate the non-tap-dance reply.

My God -- thank you so much.

Would you be able to provide a Doak number for it ?

Robert isn't as familiar with you as I am, Matt.

My feeling remains the more one is familiar with you, the less one will be inclined to offer any opinions to you.

It's not tap-dancing, Matt.  It's refusal to engage you, yet again.  Your actions time and time again have proven that it is not worth it to answer any of your questions.  You know what you know and it doesn't matter at all what anyone else might think... you're going to tell us the "right" answers anyway.

Give Robert time and he'll see the light... or darkness as it were.

TH

[Mike Benham]

6

[Matt_Ward]

Many thanks Mike ...

Do you have a Doak number for the original Bandon Dunes layout -- assuming you have played it ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Many thanks Mike ...

Do you have a Doak number for the original Bandon Dunes layout -- assuming you have played it ?

Mike - you owe me a Mortimer.

 

[Kyle Henderson]

I'm looking forward to playing Stonebrae myself at the end of April. I can't imagine it's a tougher walk than the last host of this tournament (Wente), which was eating a million bucks every year in promotional costs and drawing mediocre crowds.

I've seen virtually no promotion for this year's event.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'm looking forward to playing Stonebrae myself at the end of April. I can't imagine it's a tougher walk than the last host of this tournament (Wente), which was eating a million bucks every year in promotional costs and drawing mediocre crowds.

I've seen virtually no promotion for this year's event.

Kyle - having played both, I will say that assuming one gets a ride to the first tee and of course a ride from 9 green to 10 tee at Wente (as all do if it goes as it should), Stonebrae is a much tougher walk... because it's not really green to tee hikes that are the issue at the latter, but just really severe hilly property throughout.

And I too have seen zero promotion... weird....

TH

[Kyle Henderson]

I'm looking forward to playing Stonebrae myself at the end of April. I can't imagine it's a tougher walk than the last host of this tournament (Wente), which was eating a million bucks every year in promotional costs and drawing mediocre crowds.

I've seen virtually no promotion for this year's event.

Kyle - having played both, I will say that assuming one gets a ride to the first tee and of course a ride from 9 green to 10 tee at Wente (as all do if it goes as it should), Stonebrae is a much tougher walk... because it's not really green to tee hikes that are the issue at the latter, but just really severe hilly property throughout.

And I too have seen zero promotion... weird....

TH

They did shuttle players to the 1st and 10th at Wente, but that did little for the patrons and the climbs down from the 1st and 13th tees are rather treacherous for playes in spikes.

The LPGA event at Blackhawk CC is even worse. I think the players are shuttled to all but 3 or 4 tees and the patrons can't even watch play on holes 12 13 or 14.
Plus, the course is  dog sh!t.
Lame.

[Tom Huckaby]

I was thinking of this in terms of the players, as it's been reminded to me that the event should expect very few spectators.  But yes God help those who go go out, at either course!

[Kyle Henderson]

Matt Ward,

Within 75 miles, the 8 best courses selected (in no particular order) will most likely include:

Cypress Point, Olympic (Lake), Pasatiempo, MPCC Shore, MPCC Dunes, Cal Club, Spyglass Hill, Pebble.


TPC Stonebrae might be duking it out with the Meadow Club, The Preserve, etc. for the end of the list. I lack the personal knowlege to give you my own opinion.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt Ward,

Within 75 miles, the 8 best courses selected (in no particular order) will most likely include:

Cypress Point, Olympic (Lake), Pasatiempo, MPCC Shore, MPCC Dunes, Cal Club, Spyglass Hill, Pebble.


TPC Stonebrae might be duking it out with the Meadow Club, The Preserve, etc. for the end of the list. I lack the personal knowlege to give you my own opinion.

Kyle,

We talking as the crow flies?  Because the drive to the Penisula from Hayward is just over 100 miles. 

I would not include those and include the likes of SFGC and Cinnabar Hills

[Joel_Stewart]

Stonebrae is an excellent course, very different, has some quirk, plays fast and dry on fescue and is well worth the effort to play.  When Ran came out a few months ago he played Cal Club and Stonebrae and I believe he liked both.  With that said, Stonebrae is not perfect.  There is housing on the first 6 or 7 holes and it's cart golf.  The back nine is hilly but with a great routing and has several world class golf holes, far better than the front.  The first two holes are very ho hum and are puzzling start.

If you only have time for one course I would play Cal Club.  Either way you will be pleased by both.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Sorry to say but PB, CP, MPCC Dunes and Spyglass are not within the 75-mile area. At least that's what mapquest tells me.

Joel:

Do you a Doak number for Stonebrae and how would you assess what Kidd did there versus his 18 at Bandon?

[Tom Huckaby]

Stonebrae is an excellent course, very different, has some quirk, plays fast and dry on fescue and is well worth the effort to play.  When Ran came out a few months ago he played Cal Club and Stonebrae and I believe he liked both.  With that said, Stonebrae is not perfect.  There is housing on the first 6 or 7 holes and it's cart golf.  The back nine is hilly but with a great routing and has several world class golf holes, far better than the front.  The first two holes are very ho hum and are puzzling start.

If you only have time for one course I would play Cal Club.  Either way you will be pleased by both.

Matt, we can bury the hatchet.  Hopefully you will take these as opinions not to be battled and are genuine in wanting info to help you prioritize.  Thus I shall give you the benefit of the doubt.  Just do understand your takes elsewhere here recently do not make one want to help you out.... at least not this one!

So I would concur with all Joel says.  Stonebrae is pretty cool.  Top 10 in greater Bay Area? That's a tall statement.  But it's not that far off if indeed it misses.  And in a 75 mile circle from Hayward, perhaps it does make it... that requires more research than I am into right now.

Cal Club as it is now is a MUST see in any case.

As for a Doak #, I'd say.... 7, using this definition.

7: An excellent course, worth checking out if within 50-100 miles. You can expect sound design; interesting hiles; good conditions and a pretty setting; if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.


As for Bandon v. Stonebrae, they are just so completely different, I am not sure what you are asking... but I would say Bandon Dunes is the superior golf course... but not by crazy amounts.

TH

[ed_getka]

Matt,
   I would concur with a Doak 6. I have only walked the course and didn't see the whole back nine because I wasn't willing to go down in the canyon and then slog back out. This is a course built on land not well-suited in some areas for a golf course IMO. There were a few interesting holes on the front nine. On the front there is a short par 4 that I would be interested in hearing the opinion of those who have played it. It didn't seem like it was driveable so I'm not sure what the point of the hole was. It has been 2 years at least since I walked it so I am fuzzy on holes. The most impressive hole on the front side was the longish par 4 that dipped down off the tee and then climbed up to the green. I believe this hole preceded the short par 4 above.
    The most memorable part of the course was the views out over the bay. As far as compare/contrast that is tough. BD had great land to put a course on so it would have been hard not to come up with something pretty special. I think given the constraints of the land for Stonebrae that it is a pretty solid effort. I would love to hear what those who have played it thought of the greens. They weren't my cup of tea, but perhaps those who have played the course thought they fit.

[Mike Benham]

Many thanks Mike ...

Do you have a Doak number for the original Bandon Dunes layout -- assuming you have played it ?

I played Bandon Dunes in a driving rainstorm so my recollection of the course is water-logged at best.

I will answer the question this way though, I would prefer Bandon Dunes over Stonebrae as a course to play every day.  This is due primarily to the land, the walkability and the variability of the playing conditions (wind ...).

If my knowledge of Bay Area micro-climates is correct, Stonebrae will be windy (cooler air from the Bay merging with the warm air of the Tri-Valley) in the afternoon during the spring and summer months.  

[Kalen Braley]

Many thanks Mike ...

Do you have a Doak number for the original Bandon Dunes layout -- assuming you have played it ?

I played Bandon Dunes in a driving rainstorm so my recollection of the course is water-logged at best.

I will answer the question this way though, I would prefer Bandon Dunes over Stonebrae as a course to play every day.  This is due primarily to the land, the walkability and the variability of the playing conditions (wind ...).

If my knowledge of Bay Area micro-climates is correct, Stonebrae will be windy (cooler air from the Bay merging with the warm air of the Tri-Valley) in the afternoon during the spring and summer months.  

Mike,

I grew up only a few miles from TPC Stonebrae and spend countless hours hiking in those hills.  The views are nice and indeed you are correct about the wind.  Its a fantastic spot and would love to have the chance to play it someday when I get back out that way.

[Bill_McBride]

Many thanks Mike ...

Do you have a Doak number for the original Bandon Dunes layout -- assuming you have played it ?

I'll bite.  7 

[Joel_Stewart]

I was up there today to watch the tournament.  A little bit of Scottish weather, pretty breezy.  I was surprised by the number of spectators that where there for a Thursday.   Golf Channel is all set up to televise so I would watch that to get a good look at the course.  The only thing that is odd is the nines are reversed so you won't be able to see the really great holes which will now be 1,2,3.

[Rob Rigg]

For a Scot it does not seem like Kidd is beholden to building walking golf courses.

Tetherow - tough walk
Stonebrae - tough walk
Huntsman Springs - tough walk

Not to derail the thread but are there any architects out there who seem firmly committed to building walking golf courses or is interesting land, a job, etc. always the priority?

Note that I used the word "beholden" - Bandon Dunes, Castle and Nanea are all walking courses (although I wonder a bit about Nanea)

[Matt_Ward]

Rob:

How bout you rate the best ones you have played via Kidd ?

[Kevin_Reilly]

David Kidd was interviewed on local sportstalk radio this morning about Stonebrae.  Here is the interview:

http://www.knbr.com/common/global_audio/201/5953.MP3

[Sean Leary]

Matt,

How about you rank the courses you have played by Kidd..

[Joel_Stewart]

For a Scot it does not seem like Kidd is beholden to building walking golf courses.

Tetherow - tough walk
Stonebrae - tough walk
Huntsman Springs - tough walk

Not to derail the thread but are there any architects out there who seem firmly committed to building walking golf courses or is interesting land, a job, etc. always the priority?

Note that I used the word "beholden" - Bandon Dunes, Castle and Nanea are all walking courses (although I wonder a bit about Nanea)

Tetherow, Stonebrae and Huntsman Springs are all housing developments. Bandon, Castle and Nanea are not.

[Rob Rigg]

Joel,

Exactly.

Doak walked away from Tetherow because he did not want to work with the development aspect, amongst other reasons, Kidd obviously did not, and does not shy away from them.

When asked about Tetherow, Stonebrae and Huntsman he will say it is a walking course, just a tough walk. I think that is an interesting way to look at it, but kind of rubbish.

These are not walking courses, they are cart golf courses unless you are committed to walk whenever you play regardless of how much it will kick your ass.

Kidd is a breath of fresh air in terms of creativity and energy in the GCA world, IMO, it would nice to be able to experience his courses from the tee, to the fairway, to the green, without using a cart path or cart because that is the only way you will ever notice all the subtle nuances in his design. Also, in a cart you drive by his not so subtle features, like the mohawks, instead of walking past them and being able to consider how they integrate into the strategy of the hole.

Matt - Tetherow is the only DMK design I have played. I am hoping to add Bandon Dunes in the next couple of months. Pathetic, je sais.

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