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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yours thoughts on this hole
« on: March 30, 2009, 07:40:21 PM »
I wanted to see what others think of this hole design based on these photos.





« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 07:42:09 PM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Will MacEwen

Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2009, 07:52:56 PM »
I assume one needs to be able to clear the bunch of trees on the left off the tee.

It sure looks like there are some narrow passages that need to be negotiated.  Is it a par 5?
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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2009, 07:54:08 PM »
Quote from: Will MacEwen on March 30, 2009, 07:52:56 PM
I assume one needs to be able to clear the bunch of trees on the left off the tee.

It sure looks like there are some narrow passages that need to be negotiated.  Is it a par 5?



Yes, it is a par 5, Will.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2009, 07:58:40 PM »
Looks a little clausterphobic.
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Jay Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2009, 08:07:35 PM »
why is the lake so far away from the green?  is there a slope towards it?
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 08:11:41 PM »
David,

As much as it seems the hole could really use some of this...



I think the tree(s) in the middle of the fairway at what looks to be 175-200 from the hole looks like it could add some interesting choices and should stay.
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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2009, 08:32:51 PM »
This looks like an absolutely awful hole.
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Joe Hancock

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Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2009, 08:59:35 PM »
My thoughts are that someone is going to look stupid after this thread is done.....
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2009, 09:04:25 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on March 30, 2009, 08:11:41 PM
David,

As much as it seems the hole could really use some of this...



I think the tree(s) in the middle of the fairway at what looks to be 175-200 from the hole looks like it could add some interesting choices and should stay.

I'm with Kalen about the Stihl chainsaw, but then I'm not a big fan of #18 at Cypress Point.  ;)

It appears to me that you might have to carry 3 or 4 different trees even if playing this as a 3-shotter.
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Robert_Ball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 09:10:21 PM »
What is the point of the fairway cut right of the trees?  The gutsy play over the trees to the sliver of fairway is rewarded with an impossible cut shot over lake and bunker?!?!  Is there a severe drop from tee to fairway?
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J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 10:06:30 PM »
David,  If you don't care for this hole you probably want to avoid playing at Butler National. If the water were to the left of the green and this were a par 4 you would have their 18th hole. Plays to about 460 yds. Rather testy finisher. Small wonder why the tour players were happy to go play an easier , fairer Cog Hill.         Jack
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2009, 10:17:22 PM »
I do like the orientation of the green.
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herrstein

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Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2009, 10:19:27 PM »
I too think a chain saw is in order.
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Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2009, 10:38:14 PM »
It'd be interesting to see some ground-level shots of the hole. Are the trees closest to the tee too tall to be driven over? Does one have to finesse a drive between them? Is that fairway area to the right of the central trees higher, lower, or the same as the left side? From the aerial view it's hard to figure why anyone would WANT to go right of those central trees, but perhaps the level of the fairway plays a part in that decision (or maybe it's just a recovery area for those who don't manage to hit the left side!). Is that area to the left of the green a raised area that would allow a shot over there to be redirected to the green?

My thoughts are that from an aerial viewpoint, it's a hard hole to love. The fact that it was built and continues to exist makes me wonder if the aerial is telling the whole story.
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Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2009, 10:43:19 PM »
What is the distance to the trees at the start of the fairway?
It looks like a really narrow gap - if those are sequoias then . . .

I don't mind the orientation of the lake and would agree if some of the trees were cleared out on the right side, then the two in the fairway might be okay to remain.
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TEPaul

Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2009, 10:53:11 PM »
It looks pretty danged interesting to me, David, but I've never played a golf hole from an aerial!  :)
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2009, 11:39:14 PM »
My guess is that the first set of trees to the left fore of the teeing grounds are in a deepish ravine or swale.  Then, the FW rises to a high pt just left before the mid FW trees at about 7 o'clock where you see some turf wear.  Then, there is a speed slot from that abrupt high pt, past the mid FW trees to another deeper swale where there is significant turf wear at the bottom.  So, the weeker drivers come up just to the crest of the speed slot down causing that wear, and the big drivers (probably more of them due to equipment B&I distance enhancements) are reaching the speedslot and gathering in that one general ares to very much stress the turf as seen.

However it is in reality, it seems to be a dopey finishing hole IMHO. 
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Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2009, 12:21:42 AM »
The pond looks like a guitar case, or casper the friendly ghost......which is nice.

The distance between the pond and the green is ineffective. The Robinson looking bunker don't help either.

Other than that, looks like a good, one-dimensional par 5 with a forced layup and a 3rd shot over a pond.
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2009, 12:29:24 AM »
Is this the slot machine hole?  7-7-7
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Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 12:42:14 AM »
Is it feasible to play to the right of the centerline trees?  If not, I don't see the point in having fairway to the right of them.

It looks like it could be an interesting enough hole, requiring a couple well-executed shots in order to set up for a birdie.
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Warwick Loton

Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 12:48:35 AM »
Quote from: Robert_Ball on March 30, 2009, 09:10:21 PM
What is the point of the fairway cut right of the trees?  The gutsy play over the trees to the sliver of fairway is rewarded with an impossible cut shot over lake and bunker?!?!  Is there a severe drop from tee to fairway?

Quote from: Tim Gavrich on March 31, 2009, 12:42:14 AM
Is it feasible to play to the right of the centerline trees?  If not, I don't see the point in having fairway to the right of them.

Is it even possible to clear the trees with your drive to get down that right hand side? There's certainly no sign of wear on that bit of the fairway, so it looks like decoration. Try holding your fist over that seemingly irrelevant side of the hole, and suddenly the whole thing looks very narrow. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 12:56:28 AM by Warwick Loton »
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Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2009, 02:04:31 AM »
Look at the relative depth of shadows. Either there is a severe downslope
next to uniformly tall trees or the 'trees' at the turn point of the fairway are more like shrubbery.

Sure would be a shame if this was on one of the king's putter courses. 
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Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 02:35:56 AM »
Any chance we can get a point of reference distance wise?  Where is 200 yards from the green, or 300 yards from the back tee?

That looks awfully claustrophobic from the aerial, but there's no way the hole is really as bad as it looks.  Those trees pinching in 180 yards or so off the tee aren't that tall (small shadows compared to some other trees on the hole) and must be down in a ravine (based on the curve the cartpath takes)

Based on the larger shadows of the trees in FRONT of the back tees, even accounting for the fact that tee is undoubtedly elevated, I'll bet those trees 180 out are not more than 15 or 20 feet tall, and probably hidden from view from the forward tee.

Is that a house or the clubhouse short left of the green?  I sure wouldn't want to live there on a hole like this if there are very many people trying to cut a ball into the green.  A few water fearing over the top overcompensation duck hooks a day would get old, quick!  Maybe it doesn't matter, if the hole is the better part of 600 yards long, but if its barely 500.....FORE LEFT!! ;)
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Anthony Gray

Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2009, 08:01:10 AM »



   I'm with Kalen on this one. Cut down those trees and...........................................put a cliff down the left side.


  Anthony

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Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yours thoughts on this hole
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2009, 08:07:43 AM »
Looks like a hole that most on here would hate.
It looks like it calls for very specific well played shots in order to find any success.
Fade off the tee, but end up left of the trees in the fairway.
Lay up or fade it again.
Tight the whole way.
No real room for any decision making.

I have no problem with holes like this.
A steady diet might be a bit much.
But I like when the course presents a specific challenge for me to take on.

-Ted
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