[jonathan_becker]

No Sand Ridge and no Camargo!

Ridiculous.

[Jim Colton]

I thought Golf Digest was getting down with the brown?  I guess the raters didn't get the memo.

Where is that goat-track Ballyneal rated in the state of Colorado?

[Carter Hindes]

Wow,

No Colonial (freshly renovated)?  That has to be a first.

[Brian Joines]

Wow. I never chime in on these rankings threads but this is one of the biggest head-scratchers I've ever seen. Sorry to see Lost Dunes drop off the list. As much as I like Tullymore, I'd rather play Lost dunes 7-3 at least. The fact that Kingsley still doesn't make the list is just wrong!

[Mike_Cirba]

I thought they dropped "Tradition" points?  Wouldn't not being able to count THE Masters have worked against ANGC?

I thought they dropped the "GREEN & overmanicured" Conditioning definition.   Wouldn't that have worked against ANGC, as well?

Do they let raters issue ballots for courses they haven't played?

I wonder how many played ANGC?

As much as they keep tinkering with the rating requirements every two years, they seem to be somehow moving in the wrong direction.

I can't imagine this is what Ron Whitten was hoping for...

[Tommy Williamsen]

I thought they dropped "Tradition" points?  Wouldn't not being able to count THE Masters have worked against ANGC?
Tradition points were dropped.

I thought they dropped the "GREEN & overmanicured" Conditioning definition.   Wouldn't that have worked against ANGC, as well?
The new conditioning definition is new, consequently some ballots reflect the old defintion.

Do they let raters issue ballots for courses they haven't played?
NO

I wonder how many played ANGC?

As much as they keep tinkering with the rating requirements every two years, they seem to be somehow moving in the wrong direction.

I can't imagine this is what Ron Whitten was hoping for...
No comment

[J_ Crisham]

I particularly liked the placement of Canyata and Rich Harvest, personally. 

Dave, Are you serious regarding Rich Harvest? I was completely underwhelmed by the course architecture. The overall grounds is damn impressive. As far as just close neighbors I would play at Blacksheep or keep going up RT47 and play a little known gem Elgin CC. Just my thoughts, Jack

[Dunlop_White]

Where can we find the state lists?

[Tom_Doak]

As someone familiar with most of the courses on the list, it's just fascinating ... if I took what I know of those courses and tried to reverse-engineer the criteria which would arrive at these results, I think my brain would explode.  

I thought with their other rankings categories remaining as before that the change in scoring of "Conditioning" would have some obvious results, but that's the most baffling part.  Augusta moves up to #1, but Fishers Island (no irrigation) cracks the top 10.  Firm-and-fast Sand Hills and the Bandon courses all moved down on the list.

I am not surprised that some of the other new courses unloved by the other magazines rate so highly ... that is the result of GOLF DIGEST's weird definition of what "great" is.

[Mark Arata]

To say that Arcadia Bluffs is 49 and Kingsley and Lost Dunes arent even on the list is to say that this list is a sham of a mockery of a sham.......

I personally wouldnt put Arcadia over Blackwolf Run, and yet Blackwolf is 50 spots behind it on the Digest list......

Lucy....someones got some splainin to do..........

[herrstein]

Augusta IS number one for me- one weekend of the year.
And it's not too far off.
My guess is that most of the ratings are influenced by that weekend too.
Great golf, and great theater, however, are not to be mistaken for great golf course architecture.
But I am sure it's hard to separate that for many raters.
Just as it is hard to ignore homes built around a golf course, or lousy grass. Neither of which an architect has any control over.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'd never heard of Canyata previously.   Evidently one needs an invite directly from the owner to join.   This is from the website;


Some of the mounds are 25 to 30 feet high, with several coming into play on the golf course, mostly to create corridors between the holes.

"From most of the holes you don't see another hole that might be next to you because were able to create those large mounds," Benkusky said.  "We had so much room on the property we were able to spread out the fairways.  We have corridors where there are two holes, whereas on other courses you might have four holes.  We were able to spread out those holes with the use of the mounding to kind of recreate the land form."










Is there a hidden Bonus category for Exclusivity? 

From a quick read, it seems most of the courses that rose on the list fall into the Tough Ticket category, but that might just be a hunch because Fisher's Island seems to be the only classic course of less than plush maintenance that improved it's position.

[Rob Rigg]

Is there any benefit to the magazine to have such a ridiculous list?

Do they sell more if Augusta is number 1, because it will be a collectors item?

Do they want people to play "Where's Waldo" with courses like Friars Head and Ballyneal until they finally realize they are not there?

I don't think this is the Top 100 list you want to use for your "I'll play them all" bucket list.

[George Freeman]

Here are some popular courses (atleast to me) that are included on the Golfweek Modern and Classic lists (yes, I know that is 200 courses total) which are not included on the GD list...pretty good list of courses if you ask me...

Modern

Friar's Head
Ballyneal
Old Sandwhich
Chambers Bay
Colorado GC
Lost Dunes
Kingsley Club
Boston GC
Wild Horse
Bayonne (surprising as this fits the "GD bill")
Wolf Run
Cuscowilla
Sutton Bay
Black Sheep
Atlantic GC
Kapalua
Hidden Creek
Forest Dunes
Whisper Rock (upper)
Greywalls

Classic

Camargo
Pasatiempo
Myopia
Yeamans Hall
Valley Club of Montecito
Baultimore CC
Yale
Colonial
Holston Hills
Franklin Hills
Indianwood (Old)
Lawsonia
Cal Club
Ekwanok CC
Fox Chapel
Bel-Air
Eastward Ho!
Hollywood
Skokie
Beverly

I'm sure I'm leaving out some more, but this is just a start and some food for thought...

Canyata over Friar's Head, Ballyneal, Pasa, Camargo, Kingsley, Boston GC, Yeamans, Yale, Holston Hills...shall I go on?!?...Huck, you've got some explaining to do...

*disclaimer: I have not played all the courses I have vouched for here, so technically can have no opinion in the matter...

[Matt_Ward]

I'm a little early with my comments -- but ANGC simply lives in the world of Masters-mania with a vast preponderance of people -- most notably Digest raters.

The so-called "new & improved" Augusta is a mockery to what made Augusta famous from the time the place emerged from WWII through the early days of Tiger Woods dominance.

For anyone to really believe that the "new" Augusta merits a top ranking is surely drinking some serious kool-aid -- likely green in flavor.

I would think Digest would know better and as Mike C has mentioned I have to wonder what role Ron Whitten now plays. If adding up numbers from some huge panel of people is proving anything it's that far too many people are missing the boat.

Couple of other comments ...

I like Oak Hill / East but it would be most fortunate to grab a top ten spot in the Empire State instead of a #11 spot. NGLA is ahead of it and candidly a good case can be made for another upstate layout designed by Rees Jones called Olde Kinderhook which wasn''t even noticed.

I also have to wonder what people see in Wade Hampton. I've played roughly 75 TF courses and I don't see the NC layout among my personal top 7-8 courses of his.

Although I do like a number of Jim Engh courses the reality is that Black Rock isn't a top 30 course in the USA. Ditto on Castle Pines being one of the top 30 in the USA. A solid layout but the mountain time zone has a few other candidates worthy of such honors among the top 100 that weren't selected.

Whistling Straits in the top 30 as well. Really ? Nothing like having major championships to elevate the layout.

I am a big time fan of Bethpage Black but the existing configuration and obsessive desires for even more and more length with even more and more narrower fairways has made the course a steroid version of Barry Bonds.

Baltusrol Lower is another puzzle -- nearly 40 spots ahead of Plainfield? The order needs to be the other way around. Frankly, Baltusrol Lower has to be one of the most overrated designs in America. No doubt having a solid location to the NYC metro area helps -- ditto the amount of majors. But where is the continued design beef to merit such a high placement?

Also, Bandon Dunes #33 ?

C'mon please -- I like the Bandon facility as much as the next guy but minus a few holes of note -- the course lives off a reputation which has been furthered by the likes of Pac Dunes.

The Quarry at LaQuinta ? Give the place high marks for the final five holes -- but what about the first 13 ?

If one believes Arcadia Bluffs is ahead of Kingsley then let me know what type of weed you are smoking. Just shows you that people will get sucked in to a very scenic site and think that outstanding architecture is part and parcel of such a place.

Double Eagle is a solid layot -- but Weiskopf and Moorish have done better -- candidly ole Tom has a few through his solo efforts that can be ahead of the OH layout. Great shape indeed -- but where is the real depth of quality holes?

What gives with the continued placement of places like Interlachen? Eugene CC ?

Galloway National is a top tier TF design but not a top 100 USA layout in my book and it's certainly not better than Plainfield -- even if by one spot.

A few others I would scratch -- Aronimink proves that harder is good but just go nearby to a place HV and you can see the differences. Ditto with a place like Lancaster. If there's any good news glad to see Digest has finally bagged the Saucon Valley promotion.

Laurel Valley? How bout inserting Fox Chapel instead ?

The Preserve is a wonderful walk around a magnificent piece of land but there are few holes of note and TF has done better elsewhere. I bet the course would be lucky to land a top 20 place in California.

Hudson National -- geeze we are really stretching the limits now. Hazeltine National is a tough hombre but again we are talking about a tough layout with little design qualities save for a few holes.

Canyata and Eagle Point I have not played but given what else has been left off I have to wonder what group of raters are pushing these two to the top of the heap.

From a personal point of view I think the dropping of Maidstone and Somerset Hills down to the back of the heap works for me. Yes, I know plenty of the died-in-the-wool classic types who inhabit GCA will have a pissy fit with me in regards to my take on those two but there are other classic designs in the USA that gets far less attention and deliver a good bit more than those two.

To be fair -- Nicklaus has Sycamore Hills and Valhalla and both are before the new age Bear we have seen recently. Can't fathom the love for either of them.

Finally, I have to say that Engh's Sanctuary is a fun layout that took plenty of guts to build such a design on such a difficult site. But, I don't see the totality of holes -- those that plunge downwill and do the reverse direction as being really meaningful.

Look at the end of the day -- ratings are a subjective exercise but Digest really needs to give this a bit more thought. In years past the totality of what Digest produced as "America's Best" was off not by that much.

It's getting really off base with the latest rendition.

Can't wait to see their pure public listing.

p.s. Before everyone beats up on Huck -- let's be clear that GW has this love affair with C&C. Anything they do is thought to be on par with the Sistine Chapel. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

ANGC #1???

It's not April fools yet....

Why is that such a joke?

Because some people think ANGC has turned into Augusta TPC?

Garland,

Have the people that think that played the golf course ?

I think you can always make an argument for any of the top 10.

What astounds me is the balance of the listings, the inclusions, exclusions and general rankings.

Shadow Creek ?
Shoal Creek ?
Hudson National ?

All better than Friar's Head, Quaker Ridge and Hidden Creek ?

Is Sahalee better than those three ?

Is Sebonack better than Friar's Head and Garden City ?

Plenty of room for debate I guess.

Or has perceived difficulty become a major criterion ?


Mike Cirba,

I know you like to use aerials, but, I think aerials are one of the worst ways to evaluate how a golf course plays, or even looks, to the golfers eye.

[Jon Spaulding]

I'm having a difficult time with SFGC beneath Lakeside. Must be the heavy influence that Benham throws around by greasing Huckaby with cheeseburgers/beer/women over on the Cliffs course.

At least some order has been restored with Riviera ahead of LACC. The former being at 31 is still criminal.

LACC will move up once the restoration work is complete.

[Mike Benham]

Have the people that think that played the golf course ?

How many raters play AGNC? 

Yes, I realize that AGNC doesn't give access to raters but do enough raters play it each year?

[Mike Benham]

I'm having a difficult time with SFGC beneath Lakeside. Must be the heavy influence that Benham throws around by greasing Huckaby with cheeseburgers/beer/women over on the Cliffs course.

Lakeside?  Am I a member at Lakeside?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Wow,

No Colonial (freshly renovated)?  That has to be a first.

Were in the same boat at The Valley Club. We dont allow raters int he spring, were closed for renovations in the summer and discourage raters from coming out this fall because of a busy schedule for members, but also because of "loose ends' (sod seems, areas that needed to be touched up) werent tied up and could be til spring.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Dan Herrmann]

So much for the brown grass mandate....

AMEN!

[Rick Sides]

My argument is how many of the raters honestly get to ply Augusta?  Do any?  It is very different when you walk a course or see it on television and actually getting to play the course.  An example I experienced was getting to play TPC Scottsdale.  On television, the course looks pretty cool and well manicured, however, I went out there last summer and it looked terrible!  The greens were burned and putting was like playing Plinko on the Price is Right; it mad for a very disappointing experience. Also some courses are very different when you actually pick up the clubs and get to play it instead of walking it. 

[Jim Colton]

My argument is how many of the raters honestly get to ply Augusta?  Do any?  It is very different when you walk a course or see it on television and actually getting to play the course.  An example I experienced was getting to play TPC Scottsdale.  On television, the course looks pretty cool and well manicured, however, I went out there last summer and it looked terrible!  The greens were burned and putting was like playing Plinko on the Price is Right; it mad for a very disappointing experience. Also some courses are very different when you actually pick up the clubs and get to play it instead of walking it. 

Plus, Augusta has a whole lot of mystique on its side.  I imagine those that get the chance to play it are stuck with an 'I can't believe I'm actually playing Augusta' grin on their face.  That can't do anything but help the overall rating.

[Andy Troeger]

I'll let you all get back to the list-bashing in a moment (Go Get 'Em Huck!), but a few points for some of you that from your comments likely don't understand the process:

Read Tony's post above regarding courses that were recently renovated--such as Colonial and the Valley Club. They probably haven't had enough raters since the renovation to qualify them for the list. The raters that have been there likely were prior to the work and haven't seen the updates, so those courses very well may re-appear in 2011.

In case any of you really believe otherwise, yes raters do have to PLAY the course in order to rate it. We evidently manage to get enough raters on Augusta--I'm not that lucky!

Its certainly possible that Camargo didn't get enough raters out last year--I don't think they welcome panelists but I could be wrong. Ditto Friar's Head, I'm more confident they don't welcome panelists and thus may never make the list because we won't have enough ballots to consider them. They are not the only newer course in that situation.

I agree with many of you on Kingsley, Ballyneal, and Chambers--they'd all make my top 100 but I'm not holding my breath on any of them.

Regarding the conditioning change, perhaps 5-10% of ballots for this list were completed after that mandate was issued so the impact was always going to be minimal. I hope it makes an impact eventually.

[Rich Goodale]

My argument is how many of the raters honestly get to ply Augusta?  Do any?  It is very different when you walk a course or see it on television and actually getting to play the course.  An example I experienced was getting to play TPC Scottsdale.  On television, the course looks pretty cool and well manicured, however, I went out there last summer and it looked terrible!  The greens were burned and putting was like playing Plinko on the Price is Right; it mad for a very disappointing experience. Also some courses are very different when you actually pick up the clubs and get to play it instead of walking it. 

Plus, Augusta has a whole lot of mystique on its side.  I imagine those that get the chance to play it are stuck with an 'I can't believe I'm actually playing Augusta' grin on their face.  That can't do anything but help the overall rating.

Jim

I would argue that exactly the same phenomenon exists with Pine Valley or Cypress Point or Shinnecock Hills, and even to a lesser extent with Pebble Beach, Pacific Dunes or Bethpage Black.  Nobody wants to look like an idiot and say "The emperor has no clothes!" even if he or she believes such to be true.

We all rate and rank things in part in regards to what we have heard about these places or things from other "trusted" sources.  It is unavoidable.  But just remember, who of the old master painters was the most highly regarded painter 2-300 years after his death?

Well, Guido Reni, of course.  A solid Doak 7-8.  We live and learn, hopefully.......

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