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C. Squier

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2009, 08:51:05 PM »
Overall, Tiger is definitely NOT the best putter.  The first 63 holes of a tournament, he's likely upper quartile.  However, that pesky last 9 holes with him anywhere in the hunt....now that's where you need to look out. 

Not one of us thought that he had a better chance of missing on 18 than making.  None of us.  Pretty good for a 20 footer.  Take Phil, the 2nd best player in the world and an excellent short game to boot and we would've been sweating out a 4 footer in the same circumstances.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2009, 09:58:32 PM »
I cant speak for prior era's but in watching golf over the past 20 years - Tiger is clearly streaks ahead on everyone else in his ability to hold "important" putts. 14 Majors aren't won without a "great" flatstick.

Clint - I disagree - it's not just those on the B9 on Sunday.....it's the par savers throughout the tournament as well. His ability to read the lines and hit the right pace are amazing. Be they short or long putts he rarely finishes too far past or too far short of the hole.

C. Squier

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2009, 10:01:45 PM »
I cant speak for prior era's but in watching golf over the past 20 years - Tiger is clearly streaks ahead on everyone else in his ability to hold "important" putts. 14 Majors aren't won without a "great" flatstick.

Clint - I disagree - it's not just those on the B9 on Sunday.....it's the par savers throughout the tournament as well. His ability to read the lines and hit the right pace are amazing. Be they short or long putts he rarely finishes too far past or too far short of the hole.

Oh, I agree....he grinds all tournament long.  So do others, I'll take Loren Roberts when it's not mid afternoon on a Sunday too.  It's just that his range gets SO much longer on Sunday. 

James Bennett

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2009, 11:25:08 PM »
I don't want to argue for either Nicklaus, Woods or Locke for that matter.

But, two shots that I remember to this day that show the fighting quality of both players.

Nicklaus, Turnberry, 72nd hole, Watson in the fairway, Jack in a bush.  Jack hacks it out unbelievably to 30 feet or so from the hole.  Watson hits it to 2 feet.  Game over?  Nicklaus holes the putt, and Watson JUST gets his in.  Watson wins, but the battle was epic, and had gone on and on and on.  Perhaps the greatest 72 holes strokeplay/matchplay event ever held.  I wonder where Watson ranks this victory in his memoires.

Tiger at a World Cup around 2000.  Arrives at the last hole and has to hole a chip shot on 18 (for eagle I think) for the USA to make a play-off.  He does, and USA go on to win.  I can't remember who paired Woods that year.  I can't remember who lost.

James B
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 11:52:43 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

TEPaul

Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2009, 11:37:05 PM »
"Not one of us thought that he had a better chance of missing on 18 than making.  None of us.  Pretty good for a 20 footer."

Obviously, you're either kidding or trying to be ironical! It was a must make 20 footer to win a golf tournament for Christ's Sake!!

Paul_Daley

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2009, 08:02:43 AM »
 G'day Craig:

It's a great topic, for it can never be solved. We hone in on Tiger's uncanny ability to hole important putts when it counts; it's fresh in our minds and he blows us away with his sense of back-nine theatrics. Pay-TV allows us to see all the shots—at every tournament—so his wizardry seems more vivid. What Tiger does seems hitherto unimaginable. And yet, before this era of non-stop golf telecasts, Billy Casper, George Archer, Dave Stockton, and Bob Charles all performed the same flat-stick stunts. But we were at work, and tournament telecasts were less frequent. Plus, apart from Casper with 50+ wins, these guys weren't as prolific winners, so the impact of their awesome putting wasn't as intense as Woods'. 

I'm sure many old-timers would give you even money on either Casper and Charles against Woods in a putting contest for any purse you'd care to name. One hundred years ago, Walter Travis used to bury the top amateurs with putting that was thought to be without peer.   

Warwick Loton

Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2009, 09:05:29 AM »
Peter Thomson used to think Kel Nagle was absolutely top-draw on the greens

Mark Smolens

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2009, 11:18:56 AM »
While I tend to agree with the point that the exposure received by Woods and his modern counterparts sheds more light on their brilliance, or lack thereof, it seems to me that Mr. Woods's ability to make putts for par, or even bogey (16 and 18 on Saturday) borders on the absurd.  In any event, this is surely a fun point to argue about -- one which defies a definitive response.

David_Tepper

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2009, 12:07:07 PM »
James Bennett -

I think Tiger's partner at the World Cup in Japan that year was David Duval.

Just as impressive as the putt Tiger made for birdie on #18 on Sunday was the longer putt he made on #18 to save bogie on Saturday.

DT

Jim Nugent

Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2009, 12:43:30 PM »
Another great Tiger finishing putt: the last one in the playoff for the Presidents Cup, where he was going head to head against Ernie Els. 

Tom Birkert

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2009, 12:55:25 PM »
If we're talking Tiger putts on 18, Dubai Desert Classic last year, when he came back from a bunch behind on the back 9 to beat Els (I think it was something like 5 back with 9 to play).

On 18 he was long in two and needed to get up and down to post a score. He actually fluffed his pitch from an awkward lie, leaving him a 40 odd footer down the hill which never looked anywhere else but dead centre.

Ernie hit it in the water on 18, which you could have predicted, and it was another ridiculous comeback win.

RSLivingston_III

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2009, 01:06:41 PM »
I am pretty sure Willie Park was the greatest putter of all time. Definitely in the 19th century.
Maybe we should add some qualifications?
Tiger is the greatest SO FAR in the 21st century?
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Lou_Duran

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2009, 01:15:53 PM »
If there's been one better than Tiger I haven't seen him and I watched Nicklaus closely throughout his prime.

How about George Low.  I read his book on putting a long time ago and have recently reverted back to his grip with favorable results.  Was he a great putter?

PThomas

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2009, 01:21:56 PM »
I don't want to argue for either Nicklaus, Woods or Locke for that matter.

But, two shots that I remember to this day that show the fighting quality of both players.

Nicklaus, Turnberry, 72nd hole, Watson in the fairway, Jack in a bush.  Jack hacks it out unbelievably to 30 feet or so from the hole.  Watson hits it to 2 feet.  Game over?  Nicklaus holes the putt, and Watson JUST gets his in.  Watson wins, but the battle was epic, and had gone on and on and on.  Perhaps the greatest 72 holes strokeplay/matchplay event ever held.  I wonder where Watson ranks this victory in his memoires.


that Turnberry Open may very well the best golf tournament of all time...those two paired head to head for the last 36, shooting 65, 65, 65, 66....lapping the field by 10 or so shots/pushing themselves to greater and greater heights...in the Open...Watson miraculoulsy holing from way off the green to tie thing sup.....

and yes what a perfect finish:  if Jack had missed that long putt Watson could simply have had to 2 putt...but incredibly Jack ran it in , which meant both birdied the last

here's how special that was:  some of their fellow pros got out of the locker room and went out on the course to follow them!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dave McCollum

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2009, 04:55:42 PM »
Just got to this topic belatedly.  Great thread.  Pulled out Herb Wind’s The Story of American Golf to get his contemporary views of Nicklaus and Locke.  Quoting Locke on cautious play:

Didn’t he go for birdies? he was asked.  Of course he went for birdies, Bobby replied, but not foolhardily from the tee when there was sizable chance that he would lose his par as well as his birdie if the difficult shot failed to come off.  “And suppose I had cleared the trap and my ball had ended up seven or ten feet from the pin, what advantage, really, would I have gained?  My shot, my safe shot as you call it, left me no more than twenty or twenty-five feet from the hole.  If I am putting I figure to make the twenty-five-foot putts as regularly as I would make the eight-foot putts.  One put is not more difficult than the other.  The only difference, old boy, is that one putt is longer than the other.”

Sounds like a confident putter to me.

As for Nicklaus, Wind points out that Jack did not take the tour by storm from the start.  It took several years, and during this time JN lost his share with three-putts that we tend to forget about in light of his great clutch putting later in his career (including some short putts under three feet that Woods never misses).

I was a kid back in those days and didn’t give a hoot about golf.  About the only thing I remember about Jack’s putting (besides making some huge ones) is that he seemed to have a different putter in use from week to week, year to year.  Maybe it was simply to sell more putters or a tactic to improve, but in this Woods seems more confident of his tools.  Perhaps another perspective on Nicklaus’ putting skills is found in the consensus opinion that he was no match for Tiger in his short game chipping and sand play.  By his own admission, he really didn’t start working on improving his short game until he was 40 because his wedge and iron play was so good he was always on the greens.  So, to win as much as he did with an average chipping and sand game, he must have been an outstanding putter.

The impression I get is that there was nobody hotter for a decade than Locke, much of it in Europe.  Nobody better over an entire career than Nicklaus (so far).  And nobody better from the start of his career onwards than Woods.  Add in Woods’ total short game (off topic) and I think he’s the all-time champion.

James Bennett

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2009, 07:09:00 PM »
I don't want to argue for either Nicklaus, Woods or Locke for that matter.

But, two shots that I remember to this day that show the fighting quality of both players.

Nicklaus, Turnberry, 72nd hole, Watson in the fairway, Jack in a bush.  Jack hacks it out unbelievably to 30 feet or so from the hole.  Watson hits it to 2 feet.  Game over?  Nicklaus holes the putt, and Watson JUST gets his in.  Watson wins, but the battle was epic, and had gone on and on and on.  Perhaps the greatest 72 holes strokeplay/matchplay event ever held.  I wonder where Watson ranks this victory in his memoires.


that Turnberry Open may very well the best golf tournament of all time...those two paired head to head for the last 36, shooting 65, 65, 65, 66....lapping the field by 10 or so shots/pushing themselves to greater and greater heights...in the Open...Watson miraculoulsy holing from way off the green to tie thing sup.....

and yes what a perfect finish:  if Jack had missed that long putt Watson could simply have had to 2 putt...but incredibly Jack ran it in , which meant both birdied the last

here's how special that was:  some of their fellow pros got out of the locker room and went out on the course to follow them!

Paul Thomas

I was under the impression that Watson and Nicklaus also played the first 36 holes together, so they played all 72 holes together.  I am right there?

David Tepper

Japan and David Duval.  Thanks, I can't remember that although your prompt rings a few bells.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Dan Kelly

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2009, 07:40:59 PM »
Gary Player, October 2002, Golf Digest:

"Tiger or Jack, one six-foot putt, for my life? I'll take Bobby Locke. I've seen them all, and there was never a putter like him. In the 100 or competitive rounds I played with him, I saw him three-putt just once. He was equally good on Bermuda, bent or bare dirt, and the length of the putt was almost irrelevant. You had to see it to believe it."

Of course, having seen seven more years of Tiger, he might today say the same thing about Tiger.

One more good line from the interview, if I may:

"Golf is a puzzle without an answer."

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Warwick Loton

Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2009, 08:02:08 PM »
“And suppose I had cleared the trap and my ball had ended up seven or ten feet from the pin, what advantage, really, would I have gained?  My shot, my safe shot as you call it, left me no more than twenty or twenty-five feet from the hole.  If I am putting I figure to make the twenty-five-foot putts as regularly as I would make the eight-foot putts.  One put is not more difficult than the other.  The only difference, old boy, is that one putt is longer than the other.”

Dave,
Terrific quote. Dave Pelz would shake his head, but as you say, it points to Locke's supreme confidence. Ben Hogan wrote in 1948 that Locke was the greatest he'd ever seen, and was awed by Locke's "uncanny ability" to read greens.

Dan,
Gary Player was so impressed by Locke's putting that he tried adopting much of Locke's peculiar putting technique - see my post on page one of this thread for a short video link.


Dan Kelly

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2009, 09:30:41 PM »
Dan,
Gary Player was so impressed by Locke's putting that he tried adopting much of Locke's peculiar putting technique - see my post on page one of this thread for a short video link.

Thanks. As usual lately, I'd just skimmed the thread and missed that link.

The wonders of YouTube....
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

jkinney

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2009, 11:48:53 PM »
Tiger will only claim the putting title from Nicklaus when he has holed as many crucial putts as Jack did to win as many majors as Jack did. I wouldn't bet against him.

Gary Player's comments about Bobby Locke bear listening to. The overspin that Locke put on the ball with his hook swing got the ball rolling sooner and kept it on line longer. Crenshaw, in his prime, did much the same thing more subtly. You need really great hands to perfect the technique, but the ball clearly does roll better.

Doug Siebert

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2009, 03:12:14 AM »
I was a kid back in those days and didn’t give a hoot about golf.  About the only thing I remember about Jack’s putting (besides making some huge ones) is that he seemed to have a different putter in use from week to week, year to year.  Maybe it was simply to sell more putters or a tactic to improve, but in this Woods seems more confident of his tools.


I don't recall Nicklaus switching putters often, but I do remember that he used a new putter for the '86 Masters that he credited with helping him regain some of old putting magic.  My dad and probably a million other people went out and bought that putter or a clone in the next month or two.  I don't remember the model, but it had a larger head that was common at the time.  Of course compared to the bizarro putters many use now, it was positively traditionalist by comparison :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Dan Kelly

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2009, 02:08:32 PM »
I don't recall Nicklaus switching putters often, but I do remember that he used a new putter for the '86 Masters that he credited with helping him regain some of old putting magic.  My dad and probably a million other people went out and bought that putter or a clone in the next month or two.  I don't remember the model, but it had a larger head that was common at the time.  Of course compared to the bizarro putters many use now, it was positively traditionalist by comparison :)

It was the MacGregor Response ZT. See http://www.augusta.com/stories/040606/mas_76264.shtml
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2009, 02:20:04 PM »
Tiger will only claim the putting title from Nicklaus when he has holed as many crucial putts as Jack did to win as many majors as Jack did.

Why is this the only stat that matters to you? I'm not being mean, just curious.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

jkinney

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Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2009, 03:30:42 PM »
George - At their level of clutch putting, I can't imagine any other criteria having meaning to them. I'd sure like to ask them, though.

Jim Nugent

Re: The Best Putter?
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2009, 03:48:10 PM »
Tiger will only claim the putting title from Nicklaus when he has holed as many crucial putts as Jack did to win as many majors as Jack did.


Do you mean Tiger must first win as many majors as Jack did, and he must make as many crucial putts to win them?  i.e. both must be true?