The Best Putter?

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey guys let's answer the question even if it is a little off topic. The Jack vs Tiger thread was long and inconclusive.

As to the best putter of all time,  I've heard the old pro's talk about Bobby Locke with awe, similar to Tiger today.  Rumor has it that some of our leading tour pros of the day made sure he couldn't get his visa to play full time on the tour , they were so annoyed by how many putts he made.

The question is probably Locke vs. Woods , as good a putter as Crenshaw was, he didn't win enough to merit consideration as the best ever.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Ok, Terry. That is great, I hear a lot of "I saw Nicklaus play and he made ever putt that mattered."  Hell, Jacobsen was comparing the look in Tiger's eyes to Ballesteros and Floyd over the weekend. I am saying this guy is DIFFERENT and there is NO comparison, not Nicklaus, Floyd or anybody else.

Here is a start Nicklaus guys, chime in.

1975 Augusta 16th green, fabulous 40-footer, amazing putt

1986 Augusta 10th green

1980 Baltusrol 17 was a good putt, wasn't it?

1986 Augusta- You can count 15,16 and 17 if you want, but those were done more with his clubs than his putter. Although 17 was pretty damn good.


I KNOW there is more, lets hear them.

[archie_struthers]

 

Please read above post  no mas Tiger Jack please

[JESII]

OK Archie, list us Bobby Locke's 5 most important/clutch putts...then we'll vote...

[Glenn Spencer]

Fine

[Greg Chambers]

Bobby Locke in the same conversation as Tiger???  Get real.

[Scott Warren]

You could make a pretty impressive 'top 5' for Tiger just relying on last year's US Open and the past two Bay Hill events.

13 on Saturday @ Torrey
18 on Saturday @ Torrey
18 on Monday @ Torrey
18 on Sunday @ Bay Hill 08
18 on Sunday @ Bay Hill 09

EDIT - But are any of them as good as the one to break Steve Scott's heart at Pumpkin Ridge?

[archie_struthers]

 

Greg C , do you know anything at all about Bobby Locke


Jimmy S  ,  can't do it even I'm too young to remember, suffice it to say that I'm sure Eldrick W is the best I've ever seen , Gentle Ben included.

However , my old pro buddies who are even more opinionated than me say that no one has ever putted like this guy Locke, Quick check of the stats show that he had 59 starts on the tour and won 11 times , Significantly he finished in the top three in 30 of the 59 events entered,

This being said ,  he is absolutely legendary for his putting  ....trust me!

[Jeff_Brauer]

All I know is that I recall watching a British Open later in Jack's career and saw him leave a winning putt an inch short. I was shocked and said to myself his peak was over. Generally, it was, but he did come back and win the '86 Masters.  

I haven't compared the two records, but surely Jack in his prime was a contender. And, from what I have heard, Locke COULD be put in that group.

[Glenn Spencer]

You could make a pretty impressive 'top 5' for Tiger just relying on last year's US Open and the past two Bay Hill events.

13 on Saturday @ Torrey
18 on Saturday @ Torrey
18 on Monday @ Torrey
18 on Sunday @ Bay Hill 08
18 on Sunday @ Bay Hill 09

I still like 18 at Valhalla in 2000. Short, but monumentally important. Also, the putt in the playoff against Els in the Presidents Cup at Fancourt in 2003. Still amazing to think about and with THE PRESIDENTS CUP HANGING IN THE BALANCE!!!

The CRUCIAL putts that Tiger has to stand over are just unbelievable and he makes them!!

[Jerry Kluger]

What is most incredible to me is his ability to read putts - I know execution is what is most important, but his ability to read putts is unbelievable.  Johnny Miller commented a number of times about how some players had misread a putt and then along comes Tiger and he makes it.  I think a critical part of being a really good putter is having confidence in your ability to read putts. 

[tlavin]

I'd much rather discuss which major Thomas Bjorn will win.

[Greg Chambers]

Greg C , do you know anything at all about Bobby Locke

I know the history, otherwise I wouldn't have commented...

[Glenn Spencer]

Greg C , do you know anything at all about Bobby Locke


Jimmy S  ,  can't do it even I'm too young to remember, suffice it to say that I'm sure Eldrick W is the best I've ever seen , Gentle Ben included.

However , my old pro buddies who are even more opinionated than me say that no one has ever putted like this guy Locke, Quick check of the stats show that he had 59 starts on the tour and won 11 times , Significantly he finished in the top three in 30 of the 59 events entered,

This being said ,  he is absolutely legendary for his putting  ....trust me!

Archie,

I am well aware of Locke and his exploits. He may have been a better putter than Woods, I have no idea. But, deep down, you and I both know, you, your pro friends and whoever else aren't sending Locke out there over Tiger if the putt is do or die.

Locke and Nicklaus on the greens. Mo Norman and ball-striking. They seem embellished to some degree, like a fish story. You can't embellish Tiger enough. The putts he makes, most EVERYONE in history couldn't even stand over and put a roll on, he makes nearly every one right in the middle.

[Glenn Spencer]

I'd much rather discuss which major Thomas Bjorn will win.

Yeah, that isn't looking so good. Seriously, I like the history of the game and know plenty about it, but I would like to hear more documented putts that Nicklaus made. My bet is that it is paltry compared to what this guy is doing. My guess is Nicklaus was better with his clubs.



There is not ONE person dead or alive that makes those two putts on 18 at Bay Hill in 08 and 09 with a playoff waiting with a miss. Not one.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Greg C , do you know anything at all about Bobby Locke


Jimmy S  ,  can't do it even I'm too young to remember, suffice it to say that I'm sure Eldrick W is the best I've ever seen , Gentle Ben included.

However , my old pro buddies who are even more opinionated than me say that no one has ever putted like this guy Locke, Quick check of the stats show that he had 59 starts on the tour and won 11 times , Significantly he finished in the top three in 30 of the 59 events entered,

This being said ,  he is absolutely legendary for his putting  ....trust me!

Archie,

I am well aware of Locke and his exploits. He may have been a better putter than Woods, I have no idea. But, deep down, you and I both know, you, your pro friends and whoever else aren't sending Locke out there over Tiger if the putt is do or die.

Locke and Nicklaus on the greens. Mo Norman and ball-striking. They seem embellished to some degree, like a fish story. You can't embellish Tiger enough. The putts he makes, most EVERYONE in history couldn't even stand over and put a roll on, he makes nearly every one right in the middle.

I would have to seriously consider Locke over Tiger for a do or die putt.  Locke’s history is not comparable to Moe Norman's legend.  Locke performed with excellence in tournament golf & championship golf.

From 1946 to 1959 Locke has the following stats:

The Open - 10 starts - 4 wins, 8 top 10s
US Open - 7 starts – two 3rds, two 4ths, & one 5th.
Masters - 4 starts - (21st, 13th, 10th, 14th)
PGA Tour - 15 total wins - 11 wins in 59 starts over 2.5 year period.

We are all aware of the differences in travel and playing conditions during that time period.  I will not try to list his worldwide victories, acknowledging the impossibility to compare between the PGA Tour and other tours during that time period.  We also have no putting stats available from that time period.

But it is a fact that during his short time in the US Locke was a dominate player on a tour with Snead and Hogan among others.  Additionally the history offers ample evidence that Locke was informally banned due to winning prize money & titles away from Americans.

But Locke should never be confused with being just a legend (i.e. Moe Norman) or being only a dominant force outside the US (e.g. DeVicenzo).  Locke was a dominant force during his US visits, and in addition to his four Open wins, he has five top 5s in seven US Opens (taking into account the travel he dealt with and that most of his US visits were for limited stays).

There is no answer to who is better between Locke and Tiger.

But I can not dispute the ample evidence that Locke is one of the great putters of all time, and Locke performed with excellence at all levels of competitive golf.  Locke is not a legend; Locke's greatness is real and substantiated.

[George Pazin]

While it's probable that Tiger is the greatest of all time is it not premature to make this claim? I pose this question based on the fact that he still has not equaled or surpassed the records set by Nicklaus?

Why do you (and the other Nicklaus supporters) place so much value on one record?

[Glenn Spencer]

Greg C , do you know anything at all about Bobby Locke


Jimmy S  ,  can't do it even I'm too young to remember, suffice it to say that I'm sure Eldrick W is the best I've ever seen , Gentle Ben included.

However , my old pro buddies who are even more opinionated than me say that no one has ever putted like this guy Locke, Quick check of the stats show that he had 59 starts on the tour and won 11 times , Significantly he finished in the top three in 30 of the 59 events entered,

This being said ,  he is absolutely legendary for his putting  ....trust me!

Archie,

I am well aware of Locke and his exploits. He may have been a better putter than Woods, I have no idea. But, deep down, you and I both know, you, your pro friends and whoever else aren't sending Locke out there over Tiger if the putt is do or die.

Locke and Nicklaus on the greens. Mo Norman and ball-striking. They seem embellished to some degree, like a fish story. You can't embellish Tiger enough. The putts he makes, most EVERYONE in history couldn't even stand over and put a roll on, he makes nearly every one right in the middle.

I would have to seriously consider Locke over Tiger for a do or die putt.  Locke’s history is not comparable to Moe Norman's legend.  Locke performed with excellence in tournament golf & championship golf.

From 1946 to 1959 Locke has the following stats:

The Open - 10 starts - 4 wins, 8 top 10s
US Open - 7 starts – two 3rds, two 4ths, & one 5th.
Masters - 4 starts - (21st, 13th, 10th, 14th)
PGA Tour - 15 total wins - 11 wins in 59 starts over 2.5 year period.

We are all aware of the differences in travel and playing conditions during that time period.  I will not try to list his worldwide victories, acknowledging the impossibility to compare between the PGA Tour and other tours during that time period.  We also have no putting stats available from that time period.

But it is a fact that during his short time in the US Locke was a dominate player on a tour with Snead and Hogan among others.  Additionally the history offers ample evidence that Locke was informally banned due to winning prize money & titles away from Americans.

But Locke should never be confused with being just a legend (i.e. Moe Norman) or being only a dominant force outside the US (e.g. DeVicenzo).  Locke was a dominant force during his US visits, and in addition to his four Open wins, he has five top 5s in seven US Opens (taking into account the travel he dealt with and that most of his US visits were for limited stays).

There is no answer to who is better between Locke and Tiger.

But I can not dispute the ample evidence that Locke is one of the great putters of all time, and Locke performed with excellence at all levels of competitive golf.  Locke is not a legend; Locke's greatness is real and substantiated.

Thank you, Bill. Very interesting. Norman really is in his own category, I was certainly wrong to have placed Locke anywhere near Norman. Locke certainly had an incredible run. Does it matter at all that he won 4 Opens and no US majors on your list? I don't usually equate the Open with a putting contest.

So, is Locke comparable to Faxon and Crenshaw then? Great putters all week? Sounds good, but doesn't seem like nearly enough to send him out there over Tiger.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Thank you, Bill. Very interesting. Norman really is in his own category, I was certainly wrong to have placed Locke anywhere near Norman. Locke certainly had an incredible run. Does it matter at all that he won 4 Opens and no US majors on your list? I don't usually equate the Open with a putting contest.

So, is Locke comparable to Faxon and Crenshaw then? Great putters all week? Sounds good, but doesn't seem like nearly enough to send him out there over Tiger.

Glenn,

Thank you for you own thoughts in this matter.  Let me try to clarify my statements per Bobby Locke.

I agree that with no US Open wins, Locke does not reach the career level of Hogan, Snead, Nelson and Palmer.  I also acknowledge that his Open Championship wins lacked most of the top US golfers.

However, Locke had excellent results during 2.5 years in the US.  In addition, he has a total of 15 PGA Tour wins.  But, other than those 2.5 years, his other US visits were short term visits.  Having to make long trans-ocean voyages (most likely by boat) for short visits in the US to then compete in one of the hardest tournaments in the world against a field of pros playing in their home country and on courses they may already be familiar with, is destined to be a long-shot.  Yet under these conditions he obtained five top-5s, a 14th, and one missed cut.  That is very impressive.

Granted Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, and Walter Hagen found success in other countries, but that is one of the things that makes those golfers so very special.

Again, for my thinking that leaves Locke a notch below Hogan, Snead & Nelson; but it raises him above DeVicenzo, Kel Nagel and Peter Thomson when trying to compare the dominant non-US based golfers of that time period with the US based golfers.

In my own mind I place Locke above a Crenshaw.  Locke has many more tournament wins and could dominate fields better than could Crenshaw.  Perhaps Locke is at a level of Hale Irwin, and excellent golfer, tough competitor, not scared by anyone, but never at that #1 level.

Locke's capabilities as a champion golfer can not be too easily dismissed.  It is unfortunate that he could not compete more in the US as I think it is very possible that our US Open and Masters histories may have then included some incredible Bobby Locke tales.

My main point is that Locke's reputation as one of the great putters of all time should not be viewed as part of just a legendary character that has little real results to show.  Locke is an accomplished championship golfer, and as such his putting feats should be taken seriously.

[Glenn Spencer]

My main point is that Locke's reputation as one of the great putters of all time should not be viewed as part of just a legendary character that has little real results to show.  Locke is an accomplished championship golfer, and as such his putting feats should be taken seriously.



Bill,

I absolutely agree with you and I thank you for showing me the light. I share your opinion that fine showings on short trips with long travel do show Locke in a flattering manner. Locke sounds like an interesting fellow and I need to do some more reading on him. Maybe then, he will be my guy in  a do or die situation.

One last question and you may be right to want Locke, but OVER TIGER? Tiger has never REALLY missed on 18.

Oakmont 07 wasn't even reasonable and he gave that somewhat of a chance. Those putts at Hazeltine to try and get involved. It just goes on and on.

[archie_struthers]

 

Bill great stuff on Bobby Locke . We're not talking Geroge Low here , but a great champion !

Having been lucky  enough to hang around , caddy for and even on rare occasions share a few pints with some of the games greatest players  from that era , I can emphatically tell you all that they talked of Bobby Locke 's putting like the talk about Tiger today. He was a freak when it came to putting .  Just like young Mr. Woods.

As we recanted to you, it is a widely known local legend that many of the best players on the planet were secretly happy to see him leave the American Tour when they banned him for lack of participation or the like.

Not only was he a great champion as his record surely speaks , it was accomplished without the consummate ball striking skills of the other champions of his era.  He played a series of 12 matches with Sam Snead in his prime and won 10 of them.....10-2 against  Sam Snead !   He was an unbelievable putter, the likes of which has not been seen until Mr Woods said   "hello world" .

ps .....I didn't say he was better than Tiger, I said he is the only one who could possibly compare with the flat stick

[Glenn Spencer]

Thanks, Archie!!

[Bob_Huntley]

Bill great stuff on Bobby Locke . We're not talking Geroge Low here , but a great champion !

Having been lucky  enough to hang around , caddy for and even on rare occasions share a few pints with some of the games greatest players  from that era , I can emphatically tell you all that they talked of Bobby Locke 's putting like the talk about Tiger today. He was a freak when it came to putting .  Just like young Mr. Woods.

As we recanted to you, it is a widely known local legend that many of the best players on the planet were secretly happy to see him leave the American Tour when they banned him for lack of participation or the like.

Not only was he a great champion as his record surely speaks , it was accomplished without the consummate ball striking skills of the other champions of his era.  He played a series of 12 matches with Sam Snead in his prime and won 10 of them.....10-2 against  Sam Snead !   He was an unbelievable putter, the likes of which has not been seen until Mr Woods said   "hello world" .

ps .....I didn't say he was better than Tiger, I said he is the only one who could possibly compare with the flat stick

Archie,

I feel that Locke was an absolute genius on the greens and a superb player. His swing was not that of a classicist but a bit of a round house heave with a pronounced draw. In his matches against Snead in South Africa he did have a definite advantage, Snead had never seen grain like he met down there.

Bob

[Jim Nugent]

Quick point of clarification.  Locke's four British Open wins are now counted as PGA wins.  At the time they were not. 

Even without that, 11 out of 59 is a fantastic record.  Sad he got blackballed from the PGA Tour.  His U.S. Open record was outstanding.  Easy to see him winning that event, if he had played it more often. 

Did he swing with an extremely bent left arm?  I seem to remember something like that from some old golf books I saw as a kid. 

[TEPaul]

I'm getting on in years these days and one of the benefits of that is to remember the things you heard so long ago from some of the best. Sort of through my father who knew so many of the top players from over a half century ago I remember some of those who knew Locke well and competed against him talk about him. I'm talking about guys I heard it from like Tommy Armour.

I always got the impression that Locke was pretty good period but the only thing they really talked about him for was that everyone in those days considered him to be the best putter anyone had ever heard of.

I might be mistaken in thinking this was Locke but I believe they said he actually hooked his putts more than anyone had ever seen before.

However, with Woods, we've seen him on tour for around thirteen years now and I would also include those notable three dramatic US Amateur wins in a row. Throughout those years (about fifteen years or so) it's not just that Woods has been a very good putter but that when those times come when it looks like it's pretty much do or die the amount of times he's done the improbable, sometimes even the almost unimaginable with mostly his flat-stick at those semi-do or die times seems to be about ten times more than the career highlight putts of all the great champions COMBINED in their entire careers.

And we have to remember that Woods is probably not even remotely close to being done yet. He might be somewhere between half way to two thirds of the way into it at this point.

By the way, I think they mentioned it briefly yesterday that Woods' winning percentage is 29% and maybe 30% after yesterday. I have no way of finding out but at the tournament caliber level he's played at in his career I can't imagine anyone else has come anywhere near that phenomenal statistic.