Maybe the coolest green I have seen!

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

The late Harry Chapin used to quote Stravinsky as coining the gem, "Great artists steal...bad artists borrow."

I'm not sure whether Igor was indeed the original source of this truism, but if he was, it would seem to indicate to me that even a great artist is all too self-aware of his sources, his methods, and the constructs of his craft.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - Now I'm confused... Actually, it's amazing we don't confuse eachother more often...

Maybe it all comes down to WHAT the artist is stealing. (Steal from Colt and Fowler, I say)

And maybe, if they're very good, no one even notices the crime! 

Peter

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

I'm no longer confused, and as far as Colt and Fowler, I'll certainly drink to that! 

I think it was George Harrison who rightly observed that rock and roll was just a bunch of guys stealing off of each other, and I believe there are clear parallels to GCA.

In any case, since we're probably confusing everyone else here, let's just agree to agree! 

[herrstein]

I am not detached enough to be objective, I am sure, but I am tickled to see the conversation. One of the things I hoped would happen at Black Creek is that people would remember and debate the holes. I just haven't enjoyed holes that don't inspire a little argument, or at least thought.
One of my favorite reactions to Black Creek came from a three-time All-American collegiate golfer who said, "I love the shots I have to play, but I hate that bunker on the 13th fairway!" I asked why. He said, "It's right where you want to hit the ball! I'm going to hit a three iron off the tee and another three iron at the green just because of that damn bunker!" To which I said, "Why do you want to hit your ball in the bunker?"
Some guys- no matter how good they can hit the ball- just don't get it.
As to the squared off edges and greens, I like them. Look at some (not all, I'll admit) of the ancient pictures from Raynor's courses when they were young. A lot of that. I have Lookout Mountain's original hand drawn, hand colored plans- the greens have this same characteristic. They add an element not found with more, shall we say, artistically constructed greens. They seem to define the strategy in a new way for those who wish to pay attention.
One of the things I somewhat regret- although I doubt we would change it if we could do it again- is that the 17th (Biarritz) hole is not 300 yards long. That would be the modern equivalent of the Biarritz holes Raynor built in the '20's- a driver par three. Can you imagine the screaming?!? It would be great.
I can't wait to see what Doak, Bahto, Keiser, Klein, and the whole committee come up with at Bandon Dunes in Old Macdonald. It's going to be great. I am sure it will be much better in some regards than what we have at Black Creek, but I am really happy with what Brian Silva gave us there. I never get tired of it.
This discussion makes me smile. This is what I hoped for. Thanks, Chip, for starting the thread.

[TEPaul]

I hate to say this but it looks AND SOUNDS to me like Brian shoulda put the depth of the front section of that green in the back and the shallowness of the back section in the front! 

[John Mayhugh]

As to the squared off edges and greens, I like them. Look at some (not all, I'll admit) of the ancient pictures from Raynor's courses when they were young. A lot of that. I have Lookout Mountain's original hand drawn, hand colored plans- the greens have this same characteristic. They add an element not found with more, shall we say, artistically constructed greens. They seem to define the strategy in a new way for those who wish to pay attention.

From your experience, do players also find the squared off edges a bit confusing?  We're so used to hitting to rounded, softer areas that I think the dramatic lines might cause a bit of discomfort or indecision. 

I love the look of the course and really admire what you have down there.  Bold and looks like an incredible amount of fun to play.

[Scott Wicker]

The depth of each plateau is virtually identical.  Front pad is 29 paces, swale is 9 paces, and rear pad is 28 paces.  Total green depth is 66 yards.  From the back tees it can play 175 the first day, and 235 the next.  I prefer the back hole locations to fully "enjoy"....Like Doug said above, the original concept was a driver-par 3; not the high, cut 4-iron many of the Nationwide Tour players feather back there.  How times have changed....

[TEPaul]

Scott Witter:

Thanks for those green-space depth dimensions. I was just looking at the first photo and it's very deceptive that way apparently. I know the hole is long but I would think close to 30 yards would be enough depth to allow a well played shot to fly back there and hold somewhere on that back plateau. Not that that should be a must but it would be at least a good high risk option to design in and offer.

[JMEvensky]

I've played Black Creek several times and it's a blast.

The winner of the State Mid Am(54 holes) shot ~ -12,winner of the State Am(72 holes)shot ~ -20,and the Nationwide guys shoot nothing.

I've played with really good players who hated it,really good players who loved it,really bad players who hated it,and really bad players who loved it.Usually,their only reason is that they think Black Creek is "different".I guess it just depends on your attitude toward "different".

[JohnV]

One of my favorite reactions to Black Creek came from a three-time All-American collegiate golfer who said, "I love the shots I have to play, but I hate that bunker on the 13th fairway!" I asked why. He said, "It's right where you want to hit the ball! I'm going to hit a three iron off the tee and another three iron at the green just because of that damn bunker!" To which I said, "Why do you want to hit your ball in the bunker?"

Doug,  I had a former USGA Mid-Am champion say something similar to me about the 16th hole when we were there for the US Mid-Am.

[BCrosby]

Doug -

Thanks for joining in. I hope you are doing well.

Agreed that a good Biarritz needs a flat-faced club of some sort. But pushing it back to 300 yards might be bit much.

Silva's over the top interpretation of Raynor/CBM/UK features reminded  me in some ways of MacK's over the top holes at his original ANGC. Both designs were/are commentaries (take-offs?) on the history of gca. The day we played BC, Mike Young, John Stiles and I wondered how many people would get that. We concluded, not many. Which is a shame.

Bob



 

[Mike Hendren]

Any thread that pulls Scott Wicker and Doug Stein out of the woodwork is okay by me.  Doug's stewardship of Lookout Mountain and vision at Black Creek are commendable.  Scott keeps Black Creek firm and fast after the spring rains subside - check out his interview on this site, which also features a profile of Black Creek.

I'd drive to Chattanooga just to play the 17th again.  While it never gets mentioned on such lists, Chattanooga is one of the truly great golf cities in the country thanks to giants like Lew Oehmig and Jack Lupton among others. 

Mike

[Jon Heise]

What a bold, artistic looking course!  I love it!

[herrstein]

As to the squared off edges and greens, I like them. Look at some (not all, I'll admit) of the ancient pictures from Raynor's courses when they were young. A lot of that. I have Lookout Mountain's original hand drawn, hand colored plans- the greens have this same characteristic. They add an element not found with more, shall we say, artistically constructed greens. They seem to define the strategy in a new way for those who wish to pay attention.

From your experience, do players also find the squared off edges a bit confusing?  We're so used to hitting to rounded, softer areas that I think the dramatic lines might cause a bit of discomfort or indecision. 

I love the look of the course and really admire what you have down there.  Bold and looks like an incredible amount of fun to play.

I have not had one comment about that.
The most confusing shot on the course is the approach to #2. Sometimes people hit at #3 green- which confuses me!

[herrstein]

I was just looking at the first photo and it's very deceptive that way apparently. I know the hole is long but I would think close to 30 yards would be enough depth to allow a well played shot to fly back there and hold somewhere on that back plateau.

If you are playing the proper tee it's not too difficult to hold the back section.
I wish it was.... we should have made it 300 yards.

[John Mayhugh]

The most confusing shot on the course is the approach to #2. Sometimes people hit at #3 green- which confuses me!

I had to take a look at the routing.  I can see why that confuses you.  It would me too.  I like the way you get a look at the short green on the way by.

[herrstein]

Any thread that pulls Scott Wicker and Doug Stein out of the woodwork is okay by me.  Doug's stewardship of Lookout Mountain and vision at Black Creek are commendable.  Scott keeps Black Creek firm and fast after the spring rains subside - check out his interview on this site, which also features a profile of Black Creek.

I'd drive to Chattanooga just to play the 17th again.  While it never gets mentioned on such lists, Chattanooga is one of the truly great golf cities in the country thanks to giants like Lew Oehmig and Jack Lupton among others. 

Mike

It is impossible to overstate the influence of Jack Lupton on this town. This city went from hellhole to paradise in 20 years thanks to his commitment and vision, and lack of ego. And thanks to the fact that Jack liked golf, the golf in this city is comparable to anyplace, and much better than many larger markets nearby.
The Honors was his vision. Not mention his money.
Never settling for less than the best, he hired David Stone.
David Stone trained Scott Wicker (who is the best in my opinion).
The whole operation functions without jealousy or intrigue, and influences how the rest of Chattanooga golf functions.
Sometimes it's impossible to thank someone like Jack Lupton, because it just can't be overstated- but his influence on my life is immeasurable, and he did not even mean  to do so. He certainly was not thinking about me. But I wouldn't be posting on Golf Club Atlas if not for Jack Lupton- and I am not exaggerating.
Jack's health is flagging, and I have done all I can to thank him, which is not much.
But if Charles Blair Macdonald deserves a statue, Jack Lupton deserves 10 statues, at least around here.