[Stephen Britton]

My understanding is that the sutton's mix is more 'brown top bent' in nature than creeping bent.  As such, it is not an easy grass to deal with in extreme heat, and will be more difficult than say A1 bent to manage during summer.  The writings on the greens and surrounds maintenance makes fascinating reading guys.  Thanks.

You are correct Suttons mix is considered a  "Tenuis Bentgrass" not a "Creeping Bentgrass". I did hear once the list of different bents in the mix, I can't remember now, there were a lot. Although, I seem to remember hearing there was a fescue in the mix.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Stephen

Those actually are from late summer!  Some are from last March, which I recall was shortly after a big heat wave had just ended.

Enjoying the discussion of couch fairways and Crocky greens greatly.  A few questions.

1) Regarding fairways, will all the various grasses and blends discussed produce the lies for which the Sand Belt and RM are known?  I am assuming that is a given and that this discussion is focused on producing healthy turf. These lies are one of the distinctive aspects of the Sand Belt and to this layman seems a miracle that such a links-like experience is available in such a setting.

Or is the implied goal ultimately about making the fairways look pretty or provide Augusta-like "uniform lies"?  I am letting my bias show but I would hope the prime directive would be to ensure tight, tight lies and that if some grass must brown, go dormant or even die that is the price to pay!

2) Thought experiment: suppose someone came to this group of experts and said something along the lines of, "We want Crocky's greens back -- maybe not the exact strains but whatever it takes to go back to how those greens played.  We are willing to close the club for 2-3 years, or go with temp greens, if you tell us that's what it take."

Could you do it?

Thanks to all for this neat thread!

Mark

[Anthony_Nysse]

Couple of questions,

1) Was this on sand?
2) Did you grow in the fescue? Seed or sod...
3) Did you have readily available water, good irrigation coverage etc...

Stephen,

the course was on atleast 50 foot of sand/gravel. The fescue was grown from seed. We had a basic irrigation system, single row fairway and block system tees and greens but we used little water. I think maybe taking the water from just below the surface of the irrigation pond (-2ft) meant that the temperature difference was less between it and the ground temperature so causing less of a shock and a growth stop.

One thing I also noticed is that the fesue outside the irrigation seemed to do very well as well on just the mist from the irrigation

Why even waste your time worry about fesuce going brown or surviving in temps that its not desinged for when you can have healthy, thriving bermudagrass? Fesuce cant take the traffic, the heat, HAS to have a good water source and is slow to recover, especially if you verticutting or aerifying.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

Fesuce cant take the traffic: fescue will take a suprising amount of wear and tear if you look after it properly. If the ground is firm and the soil has enough air in it then even dormant grasses will hold up to a suprising amount of traffic. To put it in simple terms, grass usually dies due to lack of oxygen caused by compaction and not by the substance of the grass wearing out due to the amount of traffic going over it. Were wearing out the problem then bemuda would be worn away through the winter when it is dormant. A regular programme of spiking, star tining and slitting is more than enough to ensure fescue will stay around.

The heat: Quite clearly you haven't read my post I can assure you that it most certainly can.

HAS to have a good water source: Again, not any more than any other grass type and less than many. The fetish of over watering has done more damage to more courses than any other single thing.

is slow to recover: Not my experience.

Especially if you verticutting or aerifying: If by aerifying you mean hollow/solid tining and your verticutting in a period of low growth then your programme is at fault.

Tony,

I was simply interested with why at RM the fairways were not fescue. I never said that I thought that fescue was the best grass and I was hoping to get some worth while points and comments from people like Stephen and I thought you. I shared my experience of fescue about its ability to cope with heat and I find it a shame that I get such an off the cuff and frankly ill mannered answer from a fellow greenkeeper.

Any greenkeeper regardless of his position will get much more out of the profession if they keep an open mind and listen/learn the experiences of others about things they themslves might not fully understand. This is true even in cases where that information might never be useful in practice in their career. 

On what is your opinion of fescue based? On the experience of working with it on a course which was successful at maintaining it or just theoretical. The reason I ask is you make a statement that I know to be clearly incorrect and that shows that you have either not read my post or have closed your mind to other opinions and worst still other peoples experiences.

I recall a conversation my father Brian relayed to me from his days in commentating on one of the big tournaments at RM in the eighties, shortly after Peter Williams had taken over, and that his key to Poa control was minimal inputs of everything, water, fertilisers etc, essentially to starve the Poa out of existence.

 those old RM greens were so clean of Poa and given that they were surrounded by Poa in the surrounds and the fairways during the winter my bets are on the old Arsenic based pesticides in the sand doing most of the work... Just my opinion.

If fescue cant survive then how come poa does?

Jon,
   Thanks for the lesson. Never once did I suggest that you recommended using fesuce on the fairways. Youd be kidding yourself if you thnk courses like Pac Dunes and Whistling Straits would be able to have as much golf as they do and be able to have good playing surfaces if they were had temps over 90 degrees and allowed carts everywhere. Kingley can survive because of their large fairways and the little amount of golf they receive. What about Chambers Bay? Currently the biggest complaint is about the greens being thin. I can promise one of the biggest reasons is because of wear and tear from foot traffic, traffic that the fescue cannot keep up with.
  Any knowledgable superintendent knows not to aerify/verticut when the plant isnt growing or is under stress. If fesuce were a reasonable choice, a logical choice for a fairway grass in the sandbelt, why havent courses done it? In the US, why isnt there courses in Florida Alabama or Texas with it? Because it's not a LOGICAL, SMART decision when a better, thriving bermudagrass is available.
  You mention water types? I know that RM has a brackish water source, one ,IN TIME, will have its effect on ANY turfgrass without a flush of freshwater. Its one thing to keep an open mind, it's another thing to be logical and keep a job. I'm not closed minded to your experiences what so ever. It's not the best surface, under those conditions, which those demands in that type of climate

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Stephen Britton]

Stephen

Those actually are from late summer!  Some are from last March, which I recall was shortly after a big heat wave had just ended.

Enjoying the discussion of couch fairways and Crocky greens greatly.  A few questions.

1) Regarding fairways, will all the various grasses and blends discussed produce the lies for which the Sand Belt and RM are known?  I am assuming that is a given and that this discussion is focused on producing healthy turf. These lies are one of the distinctive aspects of the Sand Belt and to this layman seems a miracle that such a links-like experience is available in such a setting.

Or is the implied goal ultimately about making the fairways look pretty or provide Augusta-like "uniform lies"?  I am letting my bias show but I would hope the prime directive would be to ensure tight, tight lies and that if some grass must brown, go dormant or even die that is the price to pay!

2) Thought experiment: suppose someone came to this group of experts and said something along the lines of, "We want Crocky's greens back -- maybe not the exact strains but whatever it takes to go back to how those greens played.  We are willing to close the club for 2-3 years, or go with temp greens, if you tell us that's what it take."

Could you do it?

Thanks to all for this neat thread!

Mark

OK so the poa is transitioning in at that time because that definitely looks like poa in those photos, especially in the 11 west photo. Although, March is early for the poa?

Regarding the fairways: I have no idea what the greens committee have stipulated they are after. Remember, most members are not the "naturalist golfers" like on this forum, many want tight uniform green fairways. Although, before that can happen knowing the irrigation system at RM like I stated earlier they have single row, outdated fairway sprinklers that don't have head to head coverage (rumors are they are looking into it). Also, an irrigation system with good coverage is no good if you don't have the water to use it. I would guess they aren't so much concerned with color or the “Augusta look” but just want a good tight lie. I always thought the fairways at RM in the summer looked great when the low spots were green and high spots were brown and whether you were on brown or green grass you still had the same tight lie. Surely members would prefer to hit off of dormant tight couch in the winter rather than that clumpy, spotty looking poa/winter grass fairways as seen in the pictures? Hence my argument to go one grass.

Regarding the greens question: WOW that’s tough, so many variables. Would the majority of members be fine bringing guests out when the greens are brown? Would brown, drought stressed, hungry greens stand up to today’s traffic? Were the greens really that brown back in Crocky’s days? Were they really that much faster (if even faster) than today? Are they even better than today’s new A’s and G’s? Like I said earlier in hindsight the greens should have never been touched period. I think now that you have disturbed that original sand that had been treated for years with the old pesticides, so long as poa still surrounds the greens you can’t keep it out. The old Suttons is a tenius bent meaning it grows erect like the tall fescue in your front lawn, so it doesn’t have the same ability to choke out poa or get as tight as these new creeping bents. So, I guess I didn’t really answer your question, that’s a tough one. I wouldn’t want to be in the position to answer that infront of a committee and have my job on the line for it that’s for sure. 

To be honest my answer would no, we can't get back the old "Crocky"greens. Although, terminate the two grass fairway system, eliminate the poa surrounds, suck it up and re-grass the greens to a new maybe A1/A4 mix and we will have some awesome greens. IMO the new suttons have been a failure.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Anthony hit the nail on the head.

Anthony, Steven,

I brought a wall to wall fescue course through two summers of 40°C+ with no problems so I know it will take the heat even if it does go quite brown in the afternoon. The only thing I can think of is it is too humid but my recolection of my time spent on the Melbourne area is not that it was humid.

ps. the course remained poa free as well

Jon,
  One of your courses that you were at that was wall to wall fescue was in Leukerbad, Switzerland where the water temp can be 40 degrees C.  THe highest average temp in the entire country is 12c...much different that Australia...

[Warwick Loton]

Another point to make about these greens is the only information available regarding Suttons maintenance is what has been done at Royal Melbourne from day one. Remember, the new Suttons greens aren't "exactly" the same as the old. When they took samples from the old greens back to the lab to propagate a hand full of the old bents wouldn't set seed.

That's fascinating, and would explain why the New Suttons definitely doesn't play like the old Suttons Mix.

What I can tell you is contrary to belief Jim keep the greens very lean and underwatered, I know because I sprayed them and was a part of watering them for a long time.

Remember, back in the Crockford years I'm sure there wasn't near the traffic as today and if you could go back in time I would love to see just how fast those greens really were compared to today??? 9' on the stimp may have been really fast to the members back then? There was nothing to truly measure the speeds back then and now all we have are stories and rumors that the greens were faster 50 years ago than they are today.

I can't contest your personal watering experience, and it would be no surprise to learn that greens considered very fast 50 years ago would not be considered fast by today's standards.

That said, look at the colour of the greens in the photos above. Like most contemporaneous pics (taken at any time of the year), they all show lush greens. Many old photos show brownish or straw-coloured greens. And remember, the greens were fast enough, exactly 50 years ago, during the 1959 Canada Cup (World Cup) for both Sam Snead and Cory Middlecoff to putt off the surface of 6W and into the front bunker.

Peter Thomson and Ken Nagle won that event by a 10-stroke margin: they had the course-craft to play RM masterfully. When Thomson played RM, he kept his ball below the pin even if that meant leaving his approach off the green. Better a long chip than a downhill putt on a hole like 6 West.

For those of you who don’t know RM well, I wish I could show you an old TV clip, dating back almost 30 years. In a 5 minute segment of World of Sport, club pro Bruce Green demonstrated how to putt the green of 6 West. His putt was almost the full width of the green, going from right to left. He must have aimed 40 degrees away from the pin, and after a rounded arc (almost semi-circle) his ball finished beside the pin. Goodness knows how many takes were needed. Last weekend I faced the same putt, and the borrow was a metre, tops. I think that the change is partly the difference between the old and new Suttons mixes, and partly that the greens get too much water. However you explain the change, the courses play very differently with benign greens.

I understood that the old Suttons Mix was a blend of many bent varieties, both brown tops and creeping bents. It was supposed to be such a special combination because it survived on low nitrogen applications, maintained density through winter, was wear resistant and, of course, provided true and fast surfaces.

Stephen's spot on to point out that the courses face much more wear now than in the Crockford era. Between the two courses, 40,000 rounds are played per year. On weekdays back in the 1980s, you hardly saw another sole. There would have been far fewer rounds played decades earlier (smaller membership). So it is astute to question whether, if the greens were still kept Crockford-dry, they would stand up to the traffic.

Thought experiment: suppose someone came to this group of experts and said something along the lines of, "We want Crocky's greens back -- maybe not the exact strains but whatever it takes to go back to how those greens played.  We are willing to close the club for 2-3 years, or go with temp greens, if you tell us that's what it take."

Could you do it?

YES. I think it would be reasonable to presume that large sections of the membership weep over what has happened. The club has tolerantly gone through 3 green replacement programs in the last 20 years:
- at least 15 greens replaced in the Penncross experiment
- all greens replaced in the New Suttons experiment
- was it 18 greens damaged in the poisoning incident? Some of those greens were killed & had to be fully returfed
Plus, there have been green surrounds, tees and fairways dug up, not to mention the peculiar goings on involved with the Hawtree experiment...
If it only took one more go with the greens to get things right, many would be rejoicing - that would be dignified rejoicing, mind you.
(They wouldn't have to close the courses - the previous green replacement programs have staggered the work over time.)

Stephen,
Thanks for so many interesting comments, best of all your account of when the New Suttons greens went in. BTW the 5th turf in that trial was another creeping bent, SR-1020.

Going back to the question of nasty chemicals, I gather that fungicides, worm treatments etc were applied in the Crockford era, as well as arsenate of lead. Is it only the arsenate that you suspect to have had an effect on poa suppression?

[Neil_Crafter]

Crocky's excellent book "The Complete Golf Course Turf and Design" has a chapter on Poa control - no mention of arsenate chemicals that I could see.

With turfseed blends and mixes, my understanding that a blend was defined as having different varieties of the same turf species, so a blend of creeping bentgrasses. A mix has different species of turgrasses in it, such as a mix of fescue and ryes. My understanding was that the original Suttons Mix contained various fescues in addition to a variety of bentgrasses. German bent was one that was used at the time and could have been in the Suttons Mix.

Tony Muldoon is researching Suttons and he would be a good person to ask about their greens mix.

Just to show how the course looked nearly 50 years ago - here's a photo of 18W from 1960 - very dry looking fairways but the green looks green!

[Stephen Britton]

Neil,

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that the fairway irrigation wasn't installed until the mid to late 80's along with the 440,000 gallon dam up on 7 west hill.  The photo above was obviously taken in the summer, although you’re right, look at how green the green is? Kind of looks like the photos of 17w & 11w above  I know Arsenic based chemicals were used because I know the guys who put them out, it's also common knowledge at the club and common practice on golf courses back then, it was basically the only good pesticide they had.

As far as the Suttons needing minimal N inputs, Jim knows this (maybe better than anyone), trust me he isn't putting out anymore fert than he ABSOLOUTLY needs. Jim's annual N inputs were frequently below 1.5kg/year. I have never heard and I doubt there is any record on how much N Crocky was putting out, although, I bet it's not much less. I don't have to tell you that Suttons wasn't a variety of bent, it was the seed company name and this mix was their greens mix at the time, I did have a rough list of the grasses at one point.

Warwick,

Who’s to say if Crocky didn't have a nice new Toro irrigation system that he wouldn't have used it?    When you mention Suttons maintained density through the winter, yeah for grasses back then it did, not compared to the creeping bents now, no way. In regards to the membership weeping about what has happened lately I don't blame them, I'm not even a member and I'm pissed because I love the place. Like I said, the greens should never have been touched (take a leaf from the Old Courses book).

Hawtree, I'll leave that alone also It will be interesting to see if Richard has any say on Hawtree?

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, just because a hand full of the bents didn't set seed doesn't solely explain why the new greens aren't as good as the old. The old had many many years to adapt to their situation which is obviously something you can't purchase and is invaluable, hence the disappoint at ripping up the old greens. Arsenate of lead isn't the only factor for poa suppression although I would put it and low pH (something that I think has crept up over the years) at the top of the list. Trust me guys like Jim Porter, Graeme Grant, Richard Forsyth and before he died Claude Crockford talk all the time, they all know what each other is doing. They all trade ideas about fertilizing and watering practices. If the greens could be playable and survive with a handful of N and 2 mins of water/week in the summer then the Sup would do it, the truth is the grass won't survive.

SR-1020 your right! Also the Penncross which was developed in the 50's was only chosen becuase it was basically the only bent available at the time (80's), and it was on all 18 composite greens and half of the main practice green.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,
   Thanks for the lesson. Never once did I suggest that you recommended using fesuce on the fairways. Youd be kidding yourself if you thnk courses like Pac Dunes and Whistling Straits would be able to have as much golf as they do and be able to have good playing surfaces. Kingley can survive because of their large fairways and the little amount of golf they receive. What about Chambers Bay? Currently the biggest complaint is about the greens being thin. I can promise one of the biggest reasons is because of wear and tear from foot traffic, traffic that the fescue cannot keep up with.
  Any knowledgable superintendent knows not to aerify/verticut when the plant isnt growing or is under stress. If fesuce were a reasonable choice, a logical choice for a fairway grass in the sandbelt, why havent courses done it? In the US, why isnt there courses in Florida Alabama or Texas with it? Because it's not a LOGICAL, SMART decision when a better, thriving bermudagrass is available.
  You mention water types? I know that RM has a brackish water source, one ,IN TIME, will have its effect on ANY turfgrass without a flush of freshwater. Its one thing to keep an open mind, it's another thing to be logical and keep a job. I'm not closed minded to your experiences what so ever. It's not the best surface, under those conditions, which those demands in that type of climate

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

Are you saying that the playing surfaces at Pacific Dunes are not fescue based or are you saying that they are fescue based but not very good? From your statement it is not clear to me. I would also point out that anyone who knows his stuff about fescue will also know that it doesn't have as tight knitt a sward as bent. That this is seen as negative in the USA is not suprising as there are, to my knowledge there are not that many fescue courses and so the player does not have a comparison.


There are very few in the USA with a successful working knowledge (though many who think they know it theoretically) of this area of greenkeeping. I know very little about warm season grasses and would never presume to make the sort of wide ranging statements about them unlike yourself and fescue.
If fescue can't take the traffic how does it survive on courses such as TOC which sees a lot of traffic?

I am sure that you are very knowledgable about your field of work. I did ask you about your experience with fescue and it is a shame you have chosen to not answer this question. I can only asume that you feel the answer will undermine your statements of opinion.
 

The course you refer too is the one I also meant. It is Leuk Golf Club and not Leukerbad. The water in Leukerbad is a thermal spring which is why you get you 40°C but you are incorrect if you assume this is used to irrigate the golf course over 5 miles away. As to your statement about Switzerlands average temperature, it is somewhat ignorant. It is poor form to take generalisms about something and use them to try and back up a flawed argument. Switzerland is a country of massive contrasts with some places rarely getting above freezing and others rarely dropping down to that. Valais, where Leuk is has mediterranean climate mean it is hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It is also very dry all year round.   It would be like me using data from Alaska to back up an argument as to why bermuda won't work in Florida.

Leuk, due to the warm wind and clear skys has a summer were the temperature is over the 35°C mark most days and often over the 40°C. Is Melbourne really all that different? I don't know. I would be really interested in learning what you do know rather than what you think. I am not saying that fescue would be the best grass but neither do you say why couch is the best choice. Rather you choose to rubbish fescue using statements and arguments that are incorrect.

[Brian Walshe]

Great thread.

Stephen's comment about Sutton's being more like a tall fescue is correct.  I can still remember my first round at RM about 30 years ago and repairing a divot and noticing how the grass "stood up" rather than crept.  It's always hard to compare speed but before the greens were changed they could get pretty quick, even by today's standards.  Perhaps time just makes everything better but the quality of the greens seems to have gone backwards a fair bit over the last 10 years.  

The first tournament I attended was at RM sometime in late 70's.  I came thru the gate and wandered up the path to stand behind the 6th West green.  Can't remember who the player was but he had a 6ft putt, lipped out on the high side and it rolled off the green.  They were VERY quick that day.

[Warwick Loton]

Doesn't it look great having that green ringed by tea trees (see Neil's last post - photo of 18 West in 1960). I understand the back of 2 West's green was like that prior to the mounds being constructed there.

Tony Muldoon's research sounds very interesting.

Vern Morcom wrote a newspaper article (for The Herald) in 1938, about turfing golf courses in Melbourne/Victoria. He concluded in that article:
- "After careful study of the sandy type of soil, I have come to the conclusion that the very best fairways may be obtained by the use of Cyondon Dactylon and Poa Annua, one to be at its best in summer, the other in winter... This conclusion has been forced on me after trying a great number of grasses in combination with Couch." Other grasses he'd tried included fescues and ryes.
- "I would not be in favour of constantly watering fairways composed of the two grasses I suggest... However, there is no reason why couch should not benefit by water during hot dry spells in summer."
- In the article he also anticipated the growing practice of regular watering with reticulation systems (yet thought this would be disadvantageous for couch-poa fairways on sandy soil).

[Vern was Kingston Heath's Super from 1928-67, and was a prolific course designer/consultant. He was trained by his father, Mick Morcom (who constructed RM's courses & was RM's Super 1905-35). Mick also trained Claude Crockford, his own successor. Vern worked closely with his father, and his thought's in this article, not surprisingly, coincide with basics elements of Crockford's management of RM. (I'm sure Stephen & Neil know these bio's, and Neil can probably guess where I found Vern's article.)]

It doesn't make sense to ignore modern advances (eg new turf strains; academic research programs; irrigation systems if judiciously used...) but the club got into trouble when it abandoned the basics under which its' courses had long thrived.

It would be nice to see an area set up and managed using the basic old techniques, and examining whether some of the problems of the last generation would simply resolve themselves. There are a couple of ready made practice holes where this could be easily done.

Stephen,
- I'm open-minded regarding the deficient performance of the New Suttons turf (ie possible causes) and your insights are appreciated.
- How close did you go to "the edge" in watering the greens: were there times when you guys accidentally went too far (too dry) and learned from those mistakes, or might you have always tried to leave a reasonable safety margin? And did you read Paul Daley's "crunch, crunch" anecdote in the The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite discussion, and the subsequent posts? Mike Clayton has written essentially the same thing, and I'm trying to work out how to reconcile so many things I've read like that with your comments. (They weren't just tournament conditions being refered to.)

[Matthew Mollica]

As others have said - Great thread.

It's been said that the greens at RM have deteriorated over the last 10 years. Various comments have been made on turf health, poa levels, and green speed, as well as watering.

One observation I have made consistently, is that the greens have been softer than I remember from years by, and softer than many neighbouring courses, where greens are better presented.

I have been of the opinion through the last few years that RMs greens have been overwatered and that this has been a significant factor behind the poa levels.

Am I looking at it to simplistically? Is it possible that a green is watered sparingly yet still soft?

MM

[James Bennett]

Matthew

better minds than mine can comment, but the more frequent use of aeration can obviously soften a green.  It also enables oxygen to get to the roots which is a good thing, especially if compaction is a concern.

James B

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matthew

better minds than mine can comment, but the more frequent use of aeration can obviously soften a green.  It also enables oxygen to get to the roots which is a good thing, especially if compaction is a concern.

James B

But, if they are filling the holes with sand everytime, the green will indeed get firmer in time....

[Mark Chaplin]

I have never played a true members course in such manicured condition as Metro, how they manage to keep the course in such condition with so many members amazed me.

I can only compare it with Valderama for conditioning and they have a couple of hundred largely absent members and a handful of visitor tee times a day.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark.

Metro place an importance on being the best conditioned course in Melbourne.
The santa- ana couch is firm and almost impossible to take a decent divot out of - and I am sure the no divots thing adds to the look of 'perfection'
Having said that the fairways at any number of Melbourne courses are within 5% of the Metro quality because they are using exactly the same grass.
The greens have been significantly improved for week to week play over the last 5 years and  that has been Richard's biggest success since he restored all the green edges back to the bunkers in the late 90s.

I played the Volvo Masters at Valderamma several times in the early nineties - and I have never putted on worse greens. The spike marks were extraordinary. Literally every step produced a new set. I assume they are better now but as Claude Crockford used to say 'if the greens are no good the course is no good'.

[Kevin Pallier]

<snip>......but as Claude Crockford used to say 'if the greens are no good the course is no good'.

Mike

Interesting would you say as to how RM has retained it's #1 status - given it's reported "green issues" over the past few years ?

[Mike_Clayton]

Kevin.

He was referring to the condition of the course - not the design. i.e if the greens are poorly conditioned the course is poorly conditioned.
You can have great design with less than perfect greens - and still be ranked as the best course- as RM has proved over many years.
I played Kingston Heath last week and the greens there were the best I have ever seen on any course for a non-tournament week. And it would be fair to say they are qute excited about Tiger coming.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mike

I understand what you're saying but have RM's greens played as they were designed too over the past few years ? 

A lot of sources have said otherwise and it's dissappointing as they form an integral part of the layout eg: shots into 5 and 6 "plugging" instead of "bouncing" etc.

When RM is "firm" and "fast" it's at it's best is it not ?

In my past few visits to both KH and RM the formers greens have clearly been superior.

[Mike_Clayton]

Kevin.

Having played both RM and KH in the last few days it is true that the greens at KH are more demanding of well placed drives because they are firmer. That will be the most important part of Richard's job.

I have played RM when it is unbelievably firm and fast but there have always been long periods over decades when the greens were nothing like they were in tournaments.

[James Bennett]

Matthew

better minds than mine can comment, but the more frequent use of aeration can obviously soften a green.  It also enables oxygen to get to the roots which is a good thing, especially if compaction is a concern.

James B

Matthew

I should have also mentioned another obvious candidate for greens feeling softer - thatch.  Again, I don't know how much of an issue thatch is at RM (given the poa ingress, I expect more than it was) but thatch and aeration are two issues (apart from watering) that can make greens feel softer underfoot.  These issues apply equally to the approaches to the greens.

James B

[Warwick Loton]

Mike,

Are Metro's fairways pure Santa-Ana, or are they oversown with Wintergreen couch? I gather that Richard Forsyth used and/or trialed Wintergreen earlier this decade, but know little more than that.

[Mike_Clayton]

Warwick.

I understand they did use some wintergreen early on but to my untrained there is no way of telling where.
The fairways all look exactly the same to me - and they certainly all play the same.

[James Bennett]

Mike/Warwick

I understand that Metro trialled wintergreen originally, but that they preferred santa ana in subsequent trials, and that some (?all) wintergreen has been replaced by santa ana.

However, I am going on heresay here, not first-hand knowledge.

Given the value Metro ascribe to conditioning, I can believe that they would replace wintergreen with santa ana.

James B

[Brian Walshe]

Mike,

A few questions.  Were the original Suttons Mix greens at RM "fast" in terms of todays speeds?  Not just in tournament condition but over a fair chunk of the year?

Exactly how bad would the greens and fairways need to have been before they would cancel out the architecture and drop RM from Number 1? A lot worse than they were 3 or 4 months ago or just a bit?

Lastly is it just me or are the changes to 4W and 17E absolutely disgraceful?  Surely they will have to "fix" the changes as they have created more safety issues then there were supposed to resolve and made a mess of two great golf holes.

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