[Tony Ristola]

Or sections of Colt courses.

.

[Bradley Anderson]

If you consider Old Elm a Colt course, I think would be the best preserved in America.

The only changes there are the first green was moved back after the grand Elm tree, that the club was named after, died. The first hole was originally a Par 4. The bunkers between the tee and the fairway were removed at Old Elm but those might be restored.

Old Elm may actually be the best preserved golf course in America. That may sound incredible but there is good reason to think that.

[PCCraig]

If you consider Old Elm a Colt course, I think would be the best preserved in America.

The only changes there are the first green was moved back after the grand Elm tree, that the club was named after, died. The first hole was originally a Par 4. The bunkers between the tee and the fairway were removed at Old Elm but those might be restored.

Old Elm may actually be the best preserved golf course in America. That may sound incredible but there is good reason to think that.

I actually would of said Old Elm as well. Even without knowing the history of the club half as well as you I can say that when you step on their property you can feel that the club really hasn't changed since the 1920's.

Old Elm is about as fun a course to play in the entire US. Great greens, round takes 2.5 hours, and the course is a par-73 at 6400 yards (even though it plays like a modern par 70).

Bradley...what do you mean by restoring the bunkers in between the tee and fairway? Just on #1 or through the entire course?

[Bradley Anderson]

Pat,

I can't remember what they call those bunkers - the ones that are between the tees and the fairways. They were generally in trench configuration, perpendicular to ball flight, and they were fairly high at the top of the hummock so as to catch tee shots that did not have enough loft on them.

With today's equipment they may function for catching only the very worst topped shots, but they certainly can function nicely for framing the hole and for obscuring the landing area of the ball from the view off low elevation tees. I think a good case can be made for restoring them anywhere, but if the tee elevation has been raised subsequent to the original hole design, I would think that that would have to be restored also in conjunction with the restoration of those bunkers.

At Old Elm I think there were significant ones on 2, 4, 5, and 15. And maybe also on 8. But I'm not exactly sure about that.  Old Elm still has some of the best bunkering in the center of the hole corridor on 10, 11, 16. For many years in Chicago Old Elm and Shoreacres were the only clubs that had bunkers completely crossing the hole corridor.

[PCCraig]

Pat,

I can't remember what they call those bunkers - the ones that are between the tees and the fairways. They were generally in trench configuration, perpendicular to ball flight, and they were fairly high at the top of the hummock so as to catch tee shots that did not have enough loft on them.

With today's equipment they may function for catching only the very worst topped shots, but they certainly can function nicely for framing the hole and for obscuring the landing area of the ball from the view off low elevation tees. I think a good case can be made for restoring them anywhere, but if the tee elevation has been raised subsequent to the original hole design, I would think that that would have to be restored also in conjunction with the restoration of those bunkers.

At Old Elm I think there were significant ones on 2, 4, 5, and 15. And maybe also on 8. But I'm not exactly sure about that.  Old Elm still has some of the best bunkering in the center of the hole corridor on 10, 11, 16. For many years in Chicago Old Elm and Shoreacres were the only clubs that had bunkers completely crossing the hole corridor.

Very cool Bradley. Restoring those at Old Elm really would be a neat thing to do, esp. if that makes some of the tee shots semi-blind. However do you think that the (somewhat) older membership would go for such a thing? Is that why they were removed in the first place? Or is the membership really the reason the course has gone untouched for so long.

[Bradley Anderson]

Pat,

I think that those top-shot bunkers were taken out because they were thought to be useless after the steel shafted club came along. And that was a universal phenomena, which was also tied in with the Depression.

I don't think any of those older clubs kept the top-shot bunkers. Now they may be more conceptually fitting because of how lively fairways are becoming under modern management practices, such as top-dressing, triple row irrigation, and light weight mowing. Balls can do more careening into trouble off of fairways than before, and so if we can hide a fairway landing spot from view of the tee, it does have strategic impact.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony, most Clubs over here just aren't that interested in checking the original plans and checking before making further alterations.  It's anyone's guess which is the least changed. Possibly Swinley as it has the same routing, but 1&18 are not the same as Colt left them.  Most courses have had tinkering over the years plus a maintenance 'standardisation' of process.

Sorry can't be of more help.

[BCrosby]

Tony -

Are there any signs those views are changing in Britain? As in many areas, differences between us cousins is always interesting. Separated by a common language and all that...

Thoughts on why the differences?

Woking is not a Colt course, but would you include it as among those that don't seem terribly concerned about architectural pedigrees?

Bob

[Dan Moore]

Bradley,

With the help of Brian Silva Old Elm is restoring many of the "top shot" bunkers at Old Elm; new bunkers were being built on 4, 5, 12 and 13 last fall.  I think they plan to add more this year. Fifteen would be a notable candidate.  These are all of that top shot variety whose function is to frame the hole's strategic possibilities.    In the last 5-10 years they also removed 100's of trees opening up many vistas.  The 4th hole has also changed since it was built as the river was rerouted in the 1930's and the alternate fairway on the right was eliminated.  They added a pond on the 2nd hole.  With the exception of the first hole, 17 of 18 greens are still the original as built greens.  In addition to the first hole changes you noted and some bunkering differences these are really the only major alterations in the course since it was built in 1913.  The really interesting question is the extent to which this is a "Colt" course or a colloboration with Ross.   

[Chuck Brown]

If I am not mistaken, Colt's first visit to North America was in 1911, and during that trip, he and Alison designed the Country Club of Detroit (scene of Arnold Palmer's breakthrough win in the U.S. Amateur).

CC of Detroit is very well preserved by all estimates of which I am aware.  It gets very little play thanks to the most exclusive membership in the region.

The Colt Association mentions this course very favorably.  One of the few consulting architects whom the club has hired over the years was Geoffrey Cornish, who recommended only minor detail work, and virtually all of it restorative.  Most important was the restoration of 16 as a true Redan; maybe the best Redan in Michigan, and certainly one of the best that I have seen anywhere.  As Redans go, it is shorter and more tilted than what might be seen in others, which to me makes it all the more dramatic and fun.

I forget what the course got as a Doak rating, but I do recall Tom's saying that he thought it was a very good parkland representative of Colt's oeuvre.  (Paraphrasing -- Tom didn't say "oeuvre" even though the club's logo is a fleur-de-lis.)

[Don Hyslop]

 Two of Colt's courses usually rank in Canada's top ten those being Hamilton Golf Club and Toronto Golf Club. Toronto (1912) is thought by many to be still a pretty true testament to Colt's work. Here are a couple of pictures of of a few holes on the course:
First is number 7, a 184 yd par 3
Second is the approach to 11th geen, a 407 yd par 4
Final one is of the 14th a 153 yd par 3

[Cristian]

Last week I visited St George's Hill; According to club staff the course is largely unchanged from inception. The course looks very natural with sand faced bunkers and asymetric bunkering on many occasions, also the course has modest length, probably also due to the fact that on most holes there is little room to built new tee's, without changing playing angles drastically.

Perhaps somebody knows more about what changes have happened here over the years....

[BCrosby]

What a great looking course. Short or not. Thanks for the pics.

Bob

[Cristian]

some more march 09 St George's Hill pics...

[Neil_Crafter]

Chuck
I visited CC of Detroit with a few other architects when the Ryder Cup was on at Oakland Hills a few years back. It is not well preserved as both RTJ and RTJ2 have both had goes at remodelling the course, the latter starting work in 1996. You can check this out on the club's website. Certainly would not be a poster boy for the best preserved Colt course!
cheers Neil

[Rich Goodale]

Neil and Chuck

Until proven otherwise, I continue to believe that Colt and Allison were more than a little helped by the great Archie Simpson, who moved from Royal Aberdeen to become the head pro at CC Detroit almost simultaneously with Colt's first visit, and staying on for a decade thereafter.....

Rich

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I'm afraid that even St George's Hill has suffered alteration. The bunkering at the famous 8th is a shadow of its former self. Another thread for the incomparable Paul Turner.

[Bradley Anderson]

Neil and Chuck

Until proven otherwise, I continue to believe that Colt and Allison were more than a little helped by the great Archie Simpson, who moved from Royal Aberdeen to become the head pro at CC Detroit almost simultaneously with Colt's first visit, and staying on for a decade thereafter.....

Rich

Rich,

Is there any evidence that Simpson did design work on the golf course?

[Top100Guru]

Don't Forget to Mention Milwaukee Country Club - Absolutely Stunningly Preserved, Especially with Recent Tree Removal

[Rich Goodale]

Neil and Chuck

Until proven otherwise, I continue to believe that Colt and Allison were more than a little helped by the great Archie Simpson, who moved from Royal Aberdeen to become the head pro at CC Detroit almost simultaneously with Colt's first visit, and staying on for a decade thereafter.....

Rich

Rich,

Is there any evidence that Simpson did design work on the golf course?

Bradley

In The American Golfer, Nov. 1911, p. 65, after a news story about Archie breaking the (old) course record at CCofD with a 68, says:

"It is most gratifying to the golfers of the Country Club that Archie Simpson is now getting into form, he having, until the last couple of weeks, played little or no golf, as he has been occupied in the construction of the new course....."

I didn't spend a lot of time looking for references on this issue when I was writing my article on Archie 2 years ago, particularly after CCofD had demonstrated no interest in giving me any information on Archie's tenure there, even after I had sent them information which was new to them, per their request.  There could be a very interesting story there if someone wanted to take the time to look for it.

Given the facts that in 1911 Archie was coming off a couple of years of design work which included a significant upgrading of Royal Aberdeen as well as the greenfield build of Murcar, added to his earlier important work at places like Cruden Bay, Nairn and Dornoch, and the universal description of him as a man of great character and self-belief, I would be very surprised if he did not have some influence over Colt and Allison's plans, before or after they had put them to paper (if indeed they ever did).

Rich

[Andrew Mitchell]

Or sections of Colt courses.

.

Alwoodley.  Or is that not a Colt course?

[Paul_Turner]

Tony

Well it isn't Frankfurter...what a bloody disgrace!  Did you play there before the changes?

I think in comparison with the other architects from that era Colt has done reasonably well,  until recently when clubs have caught the redo bug, such as:

Eden (what a hatchet job)
Dublin (most greens dug up and USGA'd)
Hoylake
Frankfurter
Hilversum
Belvoir Park
Camberley
Royal Wimbledon
...and now that bastion of great design, Ernie Els, is going to dig up and "modernise" the greens on the Burma Road.

Portrush is probably the best preserved, there were changes to a couple of holes but Colt and Co did the design work.  St Germain is a good choice too, some major revisions but very early on, with nothing much since (2nd green needs fixing).  Swinley and SGH aren't much different other that the poor bunker work and Wentworth East as well.  Swinley had some changes early on but I'm pretty sure these were under Colt's supervision (his favourite course after all); there were also some minor tweaks by a misguided secretary (softened a green or two) in last 15 years.  Addington?

I agree Toronto is a good choice, although Alison made a couple of significant changes and Watson altered a green or two (I actually like his 16th green and the 2nd isn't bad either)

Hidden gems like Harborne, Whittington Heath, Effingham, Brancepeth, Prestbury, Brokenhurst, Trevose, St Mellons, De Pan, Eindhoven... all pretty close to as designed. 
 

[Tony Ristola]

Paul,

Didn't play there before the changes, wish I had.

Took a bunch of photos and Frank Pont will be receiving them soon (this week Frank, this week!) for his golfarchitecturepictures.com site. There are elements of repetition: One is each greensite sporting three catch basins, the other a bunker form repeated at least 20 times; shaped like a four leaf clover turning into an amoeba, turning into the Pillsbury Dough Boy.

Can't say enough about the members and management; all were terrific.

G1


G2


G3


... 3 for 3... and over and over they appear.

[Paul_Turner]

Tony

Evidence of Frankfurter, as designed, is scant from what I can tell (just 2 not great black and white pics)... I think I may pay for the old Shells Wonderful World video from the 1960s.  If I do, I will digitize and send you a copy. 

It seems pretty flat but is there enough movement for interesting golf?

[Patrick Kiser]

Glad to see some H.S. Colt threads as of late.

I'm by no means an expect, but from what little digging I've done it sure seems like some of the best preserved Colt work would be in Holland and Belgium.

We need our Dutch and Belgian GCAers to weigh in on this.

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