Maybe the coolest green I have seen!

[Chip Gaskins]

I played Black Creek in Chattanooga a couple of days ago.

Trying to hit that back tier with a 3 iron is not very easy!

[Bill_McBride]

Chip, did you try to fly the 3-iron onto the back tier or run it through the swale?  How firm and fast was the course playing?

That is a lovely evocation of the Biarritz, in a great mountain setting.  We need to think about a Chattanooga Dixie Cup.  I haven't been back there since I blew the transmission in my '61 Austin Healey there in 1965, en route to a party weekend at Sewanee! 

[Joe Hancock]

Chip,

When you say it's hard to hit with a 3 iron, do you mean flying it to the back plateau, or running it there? I imagine both shots would be difficult, but for me, I would be landing on the front with a runner....I'm not good enough to fly anything to that back pad!

Joe

[Jon Wiggett]

Chip,

you know the question we all really want to know the answer to is did you fly that 3 iron all the way back to the back plateau or try running it in?

Really cool looking green though

[Chip Gaskins]

It had rained 3-4 inches in the preceding few days so everything was completely underwater.  I was the only person on the course.  The owner, Doug Stein, came out to the course to meet me and is a fantastic fantastic guy.  He had a vision for Black Creek and I think he nailed it.  I have never played a Raynor course and was suppose to play Lookout Mountain yesterday morning but got rained/fogged out.  I can say I do love the shapes of the greens much more than I thought I would.  The sharp edges and squared off green complexes actually add a new dimension (in my mind at least) to minimalist.

I  played the back tee and it was 203 to the middle of the green.  I would be lying if I said I was trying to fly it to the back pad but that's what happened and the green was wet enough it stayed on.

Here are a couple more pics:

Back tee at #17 (205 yard Biarritz)



A very cool version of a reverse Redan.  Another 3 iron pull hooked up on the bank to the left and trickled on to the green 15 feet from the pin...pure luck. (picture taken from behind the green)



#11



Punchbowl green on blind par 5



#16

[ed_getka]

Chip,
   Thanks for the reminder of this course and for posting the pix. Now that I am on the east coast Black Creek is one I would like to see.

[Lou_Duran]

Chip,

What's the pedigree of this course?  What type of club is it? 

[Bart Bradley]

Lou:

Website says private, residential ...designed by Brian Silva.

Bart

[Michael Blake]

I've never played a Raynor course or a Raynor 'tribute' course.  But simply from the pictures,  I do not like the unnatural look of squared edges and sharp geometrical features. 

Of course that has nothing to do with how it plays.  Just a personal view on how unpleasing it looks to my eyes.

[Mark Pritchett]

Here are a couple of pictures from 2007.  The ball on the green is not mine, I missed the green to the left and was happy to walk away with a 4. 





I enjoyed Black Creek and would recommend anyone to seek out a game there. 

[David Neveux]

Here are a couple Pictures I have, not sure of exact hole numbers....

#2-3 (par 3)


Here is another of the "reverse redan" hole,
#7 (par 3)


Looking back at the Large Punchbowl 6th, which is generally a blind 2nd / 3rd
#6 (par 5)

The Green sits behind this mound


#10 (par 4)




#17 (par 3)




I felt that at times the front nine was a bit cluttered and constricted feeling by the housing, but what can you do?  You don't get this feeling on the back at all!!  

A very unique (at least it was for me) course, I love how the shapes of the greens and bunkers are very concise and bold, i.e. the squared off bunker / green edges.  Plenty of old school design i.e. biarittz, reverse redanish, ect.  Also note a pretty easy walk although I did suffer a wicked bloody nose....


Cool course, cool setting (minus the houses).

[Sean Leary]

A friend played in the US Mid Am that was played here a few years back, and said if you landed it all the may back it wouldn't hold, but landing in the front, it couldn't get all the way back..

From these pics it looks like long is a disaster.

[JESII]

I have never quite understood what is attractive or good about that type of green...can anyone educate me?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I've never played a Raynor course or a Raynor 'tribute' course.  But simply from the pictures,  I do not like the unnatural look of squared edges and sharp geometrical features. 

Of course that has nothing to do with how it plays.  Just a personal view on how unpleasing it looks to my eyes.

Have you been to Forsgate Banks?
Raynors work fits into the ground better than it appears this one - which really pushed the engineering looking envelope.  It does look fun.

The good Banks holes at Francis Byrne are more like Raynor.

[Doug Siebert]

I agree with Michael, those shapes really do not work at all for me.  I've seen some squared off greens that work, there's something about the setting that just screams "WRONG!" to me.  Maybe its the way those geometric bunkers frame it?

Seeing that is almost enough to make me pine for Desmond Muirhead!

[Stewart Abramson]

This hole reminds me of a par 3 at Tamarack CC in Greenwhich CT which is a CH Banks course. Its been many years since I played there but my recollection is that it is the 11th or 12th and is also long (200-220 range) with a similar swale, perhaps more toward the front, and a similar shape. Anyone have a photo of that hole?

[PCCraig]

I think the idea of a Raynor "tribute" course is a neat one, esp. on a public course if done correctly. It may seem crazy to most public golfers at first but in the long run those greens can't be worse than the usual tight muni hole.

[BCrosby]

I enjoyed Black Creek. The setting (other than the houses on some holes on the front) and golf are delightful.

Part of my enjoyment was seeing BC as a Raynor satire. I think Silva was having a bit of fun with Raynor, pushing his style to the edge and maybe beyond. Which I thought was really cool.

But it also raises the question I wondered about at the time. How do you do a tribute course to someone who did tribute courses to CB MacDonald, who in turn did tribute holes to various UK models? The regressions get crazy. But that too was part of the fun at BC.

Bob

[George Freeman]

Nev,

Did the course play as firm and fast as it looks in your pics??  If it played as fast as it looks, I can only imagine how much fun that round must have been on a course like BC.

[Bill_McBride]

I enjoyed Black Creek. The setting (other than the houses on some holes on the front) and golf are delightful.

Part of my enjoyment was seeing BC as a Raynor satire. I think Silva was having a bit of fun with Raynor, pushing his style to the edge and maybe beyond. Which I thought was really cool.

But it also raises the question I wondered about at the time. How do you do a tribute course to someone who did tribute courses to CB MacDonald, who in turn did tribute holes to various UK models? The regressions get crazy. But that too was part of the fun at BC.

Bob

I suspect that's why some here who wax euphoric, or perhaps even orgasmic, about MacDonald/Raynor courses and holes, find Black Creek too 'manufactured' for their tastes.  The holes appear to be a lot more created than perhaps overlaid on the terrain, although I personally see a lot of manufacturing skill on the MacD/R courses I've played and seen.

[Mike_Cirba]

I have to say that I like what I see in those pictures a great deal.

From my perspective, if a decision is made to go geometric, which is a very valid and historically cognizant choice, then I'd much rather see BOLD and DEFIANT features than timid and flaccid ones.

[Peter Pallotta]

Chip (and Bob C and Mike C et al), you have much more catholic tastes than I - and I mean that as a compliment. I wish I could enjoy/appreciate the wider range of courses and styles that you do.  While you'll rarely find me slagging any course or any architect around here - I am in no position whatsoever to critique anyone's talents or decisions -  I find the geometric shapes  make the whole enterprise (the course, the golf, golfing) far too self-conscious.  And that Mike is no doubt right about the historical precedence/homage doesn't mitigate that self-consciousness for me in this case (whereas perfectly round pot bunkers, for example, somehow do).   

Peter 

[Mike_Cirba]

Peter,

That's an interesting perspective and criticism.

Certainly, any art form seems best expressed as something primal and reactive and impulsive....as if some creative impulse just stirs within and seeks physical manifestation.

But, part of me wonders if all art isn't craft?   And that simply some craftsmen are better at hiding their steps than others? 

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - thanks. My first reaction is that in fact all art worthy of the name is indeed mostly craft.  When Stravinsky was asked where his 'inspiration' came from, he said: "I'm not sure whether it comes from the sub-conscious or the supra-conscious, but I'm sure it doesn't come from the self-conscious."  Yes, he was talking about the spark, the impulse, the creative intention. But that inspiration has to be made manifest and real (in sound or words or earth) for it to be shared, and the only way it can be made manifest is through the craft, the skill of the artist with the medium of his art.  And for that skill and craft to be used to serve the "self-conscious" seems to me to defeat the purpose.  But again, I grant that it must be a matter of my (more limited) tastes.   

Peter

[Tim Gavrich]

Black Creek is pretty high up on the list of courses I hope to play someday.  I am not ashamed to say I am one who waxes euphoric about the Macdonald/Raynor style.  I personally love the geometric look of the bunkers and greens, especially juxtaposed with the mountain scenery.  Furthermore, I think that if I were to pick a "look" for a golf course to dovetail with the look of the houses on it, the BC "look" is pretty good.

[Tags:]

Tags: